View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #381
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    That sounds really honorable but the "hard truth" is autistic kids most often have reinforcement at home. It takes teachers/parents and students who are willing to work together. I have several friends who are teachers. What I am getting from them is the lack of parental involvement in their student's life. They tell me they send out parent teacher conferences only to sit there all evening and have but a couple of parents show up for their meeting. Then they call the no shows personally and ask for another chance to speak with them about their child's progress and relay issues that the parents need to address with their children and it goes nowhere. Often the only time they hear from these parents is after the problem has gotten out of control and the child either ends up in detention or suspended. Then the parents manage to drag their arses into the school to bitch about the kid getting suspended. Your way of providing all these special services because the kids have jerks for parents, many are already in place and leaving those who actually still pay taxes a heavier burden to carry to pay for them. There is no way to rescue every child but those that you can by offering them another choice in school that they attend, should be paramount.
    I don't disagree that parents, neighborhood and culture are among the reasons why children fail in school. That is a reality that schools need to address with work on the kids behavior, longer school days, longer school years, more and better pre-school access and other measures. It costs the same to send somneone to Harvard as it cost to keep them in prison. The USA imprisons a larger portion of its population than any other nation in the history of the world. We can educate virtually every child effectively if we change our priorities from dealing with the results of failed education to preventing educational failure.

  2. #382
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    I don't disagree that parents, neighborhood and culture are among the reasons why children fail in school. That is a reality that schools need to address with work on the kids behavior, longer school days, longer school years, more and better pre-school access and other measures. It costs the same to send somneone to Harvard as it cost to keep them in prison. The USA imprisons a larger portion of its population than any other nation in the history of the world. We can educate virtually every child effectively if we change our priorities from dealing with the results of failed education to preventing educational failure.
    while i appreciate that you have seized on THE major barrier to a good education for all students, that so many tend to reside in unsupportive environments, i do not see that you have addressed the problem
    longer school days, longer school year, better pre-school speak to the symptoms and not the underlying problem. those ill disciplined kids return to their unsupportive homes every night and weekend. and then return to the school room as undisciplined as when they left the previous school day
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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  3. #383
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    ...However, after paying those taxes and your child is not receiving an adequate education, what is a parent's recourse? ....
    Attend and participate in school board and PTA meetings, work with the teacher, complain to the principal, run for the school board and/or supporting board candidates are all options for a reasonably prosperous parent, all of which are virtually impossible for many parents amongst the working poor. Ironically, the people with the most ability to improve school quality, yet don't use those opportunities, are often the ones most inclined to destroy for the of public education with voucher and privatization schemes for their own family's assumed/perceived benefit.

  4. #384
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    while i appreciate that you have seized on THE major barrier to a good education for all students, that so many tend to reside in unsupportive environments, i do not see that you have addressed the problem
    longer school days, longer school year, better pre-school speak to the symptoms and not the underlying problem. those ill disciplined kids return to their unsupportive homes every night and weekend. and then return to the school room as undisciplined as when they left the previous school day
    I think that's when the importance of having specific resources available to meet the needs of these children rather than throwing them in the back of a classroom to act out and call it "inclusion" needs to be changed. If you have a child crying out for help (in many severe cases it is a mental health issue) don't leave a classroom teacher there alone with 30 other students to deal with it and then add the extra pressure of they all must pass a test so no time off learning. It us unrealistic. Have a paid mental health or behavioral specialist on staff to deal with children who need the help. Schools need to stop pretending it is not a real problem and that a classroom teacher is a super hero that can deal with all significant problems because it's the cheaper alternative.

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    while i appreciate that you have seized on THE major barrier to a good education for all students, that so many tend to reside in unsupportive environments, i do not see that you have addressed the problem
    longer school days, longer school year, better pre-school speak to the symptoms and not the underlying problem. those ill disciplined kids return to their unsupportive homes every night and weekend. and then return to the school room as undisciplined as when they left the previous school day
    The measures I mentioned, and others, can address the underlying problems to a large degree. Those people who manage to overcome their poverty without the benefit of good parents nearly always do so with the aid of a mentor who gives them hope, encouragement and a good role model. The schools should be able to provide these mentors and the attention to behavioral, nutritional, pyschological and other issues that is needed. This has been done successfully in some schools. It can be done everywhere it is needed in public schools with sufficient commitment, oversight and enough funding. Again, we need to change our priorities from dealing with the results of failed education to preventing educational failure. Privatization and voucher schemes will not make that happen, instead those schemes will increase the difference in quality between rich and poor schools.

    Privatization and voucher schemes are based on the notion that it impossible to effectively educate most poor and other challenging children, and that it is acceptable to give up on the effort. The problem of educational failure will never be solved with that attitude and such practices.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 02-02-14 at 04:12 PM.

  6. #386
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Really?

    NCSPE: National Center for the Study of Privatization in Education, Teachers College, Columbia University
    NCSPE: Funding

    NCSPE: Advisory Board
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Newman_(educator)


    NCSPE: Team





    I suspect you don't like it's message, which makes you blind and/or prejudice - but you're more than welcome to attempt to prove your unfounded claim.
    Since I made no evaluation of its message since I know next to nothing about the organization, its pretty hard to be either blind or prejudiced about it. I do know something about the NEA, however--I have experienced that first hand, up close, and personal--and therefore my suspicion that an organization they would partner with is likely their own extension is not unwarranted or unfounded. Upon a bit of further research I can accept that that NCSPE is not affiliated with the NEA but published a paper favorable to the point of view promoted by the NEA. I don't know enough about the NCSPE to know if they actually do have a sociopolitical agenda and what, if they do, that might be.

    I do know that the paper/study cited simply doesn't jive with the research I've seen from others. If that makes me blind and prejudiced, so be it.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #387
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Since I made no evaluation of its message since I know next to nothing about the organization, its pretty hard to be either blind or prejudiced about it. I do know something about the NEA, however--I have experienced that first hand, up close, and personal--and therefore my suspicion that an organization they would partner with is likely their own extension is not unwarranted or unfounded. Upon a bit of further research I can accept that that NCSPE is not affiliated with the NEA but published a paper favorable to the point of view promoted by the NEA. I don't know enough about the NCSPE to know if they actually do have a sociopolitical agenda and what, if they do, that might be.

    I do know that the paper/study cited simply doesn't jive with the research I've seen from others. If that makes me blind and prejudiced, so be it.
    You never cited any 'research'. I'm still waiting.

  8. #388
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    You never cited any 'research'. I'm still waiting.
    But I did post a case history of an actual voucher system in operation that doesn't fit with the study you cited. And I mentioned our own experience with charter schools, all voluntary, in our own school system here which is one of the largest districts in the country. I haven't posted links to studies I've read because I simply don't care enough to go hunt them up again if they are even on the internet. I concede that the study you linked strongly criticizes school choice. Again my own experience and what I have read doesn't support the opinion of the author or authors of that study. But then, just because somebody publishes something is not particularly convincing to me. And I have my reasons for that point of view too.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #389
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    But I did post a case history of an actual voucher system in operation that doesn't fit with the study you cited. And I mentioned our own experience with charter schools, all voluntary, in our own school system here which is one of the largest districts in the country. I haven't posted links to studies I've read because I simply don't care enough to go hunt them up again if they are even on the internet. I concede that the study you linked strongly criticizes school choice. Again my own experience and what I have read doesn't support the opinion of the author or authors of that study. But then, just because somebody publishes something is not particularly convincing to me. And I have my reasons for that point of view too.
    AlbqOwl, I've no problem with the fact that they raised the additional funds rather than raid funds from other students that attend public schools. In fact, I applaud it. Unfortunately, the problem is that is not the norm. That is a problem. I've no problem speaking out against it because it's depleting funds from the schools that need it the most. That is just one of the reasons classroom teachers are left with fewer and fewer resources to help the most needy students. Also, are you speaking about a district or school? I see school but perhaps, you could show me more.

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    That's because they can choose how many special needs children they want to accept. Special education costs can be highly expensive. If they were mandated to accept all special needs children, AND they were required by IDEA to apply that law, you would see those costs rise too. Picking what they want to take on is rather unfair.
    There is no reason to believe that there would not arise schools tailored to their specific needs and therefore more efficient.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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