View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #361
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Not necessarily. Many states that use the voucher program for private schools don't have that accountability.
    Oh? Which ones?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  2. #362
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Caring has very little to do with it. Kids who live in the inner city might have parents who care about them but aren't around very often. A single mother working two jobs to make ends meet is not going to be able to give her kid the attention he needs even though she might care about him very much.

    Parental guidance, more so than caring, is often what separates well-behaved children who succeed from ill behaved children who fail in school.
    Ah, I see. Caring parents is not the problem then. So, this caring, but absent, parent, who is trying to get their kid into a better school, is not likely to be involved in the childs academic life?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  3. #363
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    not in my state
    neither are their any minimum performance standards for home schooled kids
    What state is that?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

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    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  4. #364
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    No, you are incorrect.

    A religious entity is a religious organization or an entity controlled by a religious organization, including a place of worship and parochial schools.

    Section 307 of the ADA provides that religious organizations and entities controlled by religious organizations are not subject to the requirements for public accommodations or commercial facilities under Title III of the Act. Religious organizations, such as Synagogues and religious-controlled schools may, however, accommodate individuals with disabilities at their own discretion, and do not waive their exemption from the requirements of Title III by doing so.
    The Americans with Disabilities Act _ADA_ and Religion

    Furthermore, many private schools whether religious are not, do not have to follow IDEA which is the law that protects the education of a person with a disability. Public schools are mandated to protect those rights.
    I did note private schools over parochial schools for ADA. That said, can you provide a study that shows how parochial schools today are being built? While I am sure many of the older buildings are not ADA compliant, I'm willing to bet that all the newer ones are. Many religious organizations are building to accommodate people with disabilities. My dad's church just expanded and incurred a major expense to up grade the older sections to be handicap accessible. I am going to have to look up more on IDEA as the idea.ed.gov website doesn't seem to be responding well tonight.

    All that aside, unless you can show studies that there are not private schools that deal with children with various handicap I am not incorrect. I do not assert that ALL private schools do so, but such schools exist. Camphill is one such school.

    Your whole argument here seems to be that private and parochial schools won't do these things. Well they do. They may not have to but they do. And if a school doesn't exist in an area, a voucher system could well be the incentive needed to start one.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

  5. #365
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Oh? Which ones?
    Arizona does not have to participate in state testing. Florida and Georgia do not have to administer state testing to children in private voucher programs. Parents can elect if they wish to have their child participate unlike public schools where all children are forced to participate without choice. The state of Utah has the freedom to choose what test the child will take. Same with Oklahoma. So, while public schools are being closed down due to NCLB testing scores, these programs don't need to worry about this kind of high stakes accountability.

    http://www.ncsl.org/documents/educ/S...Comparison.pdf

    Also: Private schools do not necessarily have to accept special needs students and for some that do----In the meantime, private schools do not have to employ certified special education teachers, and they are not subject to the same mandates as public schools under the federal Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act. New voucher plan for special-needs students revives dispute

  6. #366
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I did note private schools over parochial schools for ADA. That said, can you provide a study that shows how parochial schools today are being built? While I am sure many of the older buildings are not ADA compliant, I'm willing to bet that all the newer ones are. Many religious organizations are building to accommodate people with disabilities. My dad's church just expanded and incurred a major expense to up grade the older sections to be handicap accessible. I am going to have to look up more on IDEA as the idea.ed.gov website doesn't seem to be responding well tonight.

    All that aside, unless you can show studies that there are not private schools that deal with children with various handicap I am not incorrect. I do not assert that ALL private schools do so, but such schools exist. Camphill is one such school.

    Your whole argument here seems to be that private and parochial schools won't do these things. Well they do. They may not have to but they do. And if a school doesn't exist in an area, a voucher system could well be the incentive needed to start one.
    Here is what you said to another poster, "Are you dense? Private schools have to follow the same ADA guidelines as every other business so the physical handicaps are certainly handled." They are not necessarily required. I never stated they never do but they have a choice unlike public schools that are mandated by law. IDEA is not mandated in many private schools, so that compromises a child's right to the same kind of education that public schools MUST provide under IDEA law.

  7. #367
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Arizona does not have to participate in state testing. Florida and Georgia do not have to administer state testing to children in private voucher programs. Parents can elect if they wish to have their child participate unlike public schools where all children are forced to participate without choice. The state of Utah has the freedom to choose what test the child will take. Same with Oklahoma. So, while public schools are being closed down due to NCLB testing scores, these programs don't need to worry about this kind of high stakes accountability.

    http://www.ncsl.org/documents/educ/S...Comparison.pdf
    You're talking about testing requirements, not curricula requirements.

    Also: Private schools do not necessarily have to accept special needs students and for some that do----In the meantime, private schools do not have to employ certified special education teachers, and they are not subject to the same mandates as public schools under the federal Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act. New voucher plan for special-needs students revives dispute
    Vouchers won't only be used at private schools.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  8. #368
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    You're talking about testing requirements, not curricula .
    Not all those states have accountability for curricula either.

  9. #369
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Show the evidence. There's nothing keeping the well performing schools under a voucher system from rejecting a student that doesn't meet minimum standards so long is there is a school available required to accept the student. That school should have much lower standards of success and it would leave the truly "bad apple" students concentrated in controllable locations, allowing the not so bad apple students freedom from their influence. If it's just for academic reasons, I think a voucher school (public) should be required to accept an under performing student for a minimum period at least in order to see if the student is capable of catching up in a better environment.
    That's what happens now and most of what this argument is about. Inner-city schools, as MaggieD's earlier post hinted at, tend to push under-performing and problem students into different schools than the better performing ones. I know our inner-city school system does it as does the one in St Louis and I'd be willing to bet most of them do.


    If you just take the performance/cost of public suburban schools (instead of including inner-city schools) then your performance/cost argument for a voucher system becomes untenable.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  10. #370
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I'm a little suspicious of this organization (the NCSPE) as it gives no information on who founded it, who it is affiliated with, and/or where it gets its funding.
    Really?

    NCSPE: National Center for the Study of Privatization in Education, Teachers College, Columbia University
    The NCSPE receives generous funding from the Ford Foundation, the Educational Testing Service, Kaplan, Inc., and NIEER at Rutgers University . The Pew Charitable Trusts and the Acheles and Bodman Foundations also generously provided support to the Center. The Center also receives generous funding for an Iscol Research Fellow for Educational Equity and Policy.
    NCSPE: Funding

    We are most grateful for the leadership support given to the NCSPE by the late Frank Newman, extraordinary founding Advisory Board Chair.
    NCSPE: Advisory Board
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Newman_(educator)


    Henry M Levin, Director
    Professor Levin is the William Heard Kilpatrick Professor of Economics and Education at Teachers College, Columbia University, and the David Jacks Professor Emeritus of Higher Education and Economics at Stanford University. He has published over 300 articles on the Economics of Education; his most recent book is Cost-Effectiveness for Education Policy co-authored with PJ McEwan (AEFA, 2002).
    NCSPE: Team





    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I suspect it is a tool of the NEA or other such organization who is trying to preserve the status quo in public education any way that it can.
    I suspect you don't like it's message, which makes you blind and/or prejudice - but you're more than welcome to attempt to prove your unfounded claim.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 02-02-14 at 07:43 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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