View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #341
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I have no idea what a Poe is, and my views are my own...
    Related to “Poe's Law”, which holds that an extreme but sincere expression of a particular ideology can be indistinguishable from a mocking parody of that same general ideology. In general, a “Poe” is someone who tries to make fun of an ideology that he opposes, by acting out an extreme caricature of that ideology. You seem to be acting out an extreme caricature of the way that liberals like to falsely paint conservatives, leading me to suspect that you may be a liberal that is trying to put forth an unflattering mockery of conservatism.

    As much as liberals try to paint conservatism that way, very few genuine conservatives are as bigoted and elitist as you appear to be. To see someone identifying as “Very Conservative” so openly expressing this kind of elitism and bigotry certainly suggests to be a greater likelihood of a Poe than of a genuine conservative.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I really don't care about political labels or what other conservatives believe. I agree with liberals on plenty of things, but not on this one.

    You throw words like "bigot" out there pretty easily, yet I bet you can't back it up with any kind of justification. How have I said anything remotely bigoted?

    I'm the farthest thing from a bigot you'll ever find, so I find that to be laughable. You claim to be conservative. Tell me this: if my hard work doesn't enable me to provide for my family any better than the single mom on welfare, what's my incentive to work hard? Luxury cars? Forget that, I work hard to provide for my family, not for shiny things. Take that away and we might as well be communists.
    Underlying all of what is quoted hereafter, is the assumption that children from poor families, living in poor neighborhoods, will only cause trouble, and that you do not want them sharing the same school with your children, and that you do not want your children to associate with them. You think that coming from a poor family, and living in a poor neighborhood, makes those children inferior to your own,and unworthy of the company of your children.

    Also, there is the assumption that since you live in a nice neighborhood, and pay high property taxes, that children from poorer families do not deserve the same opportunity for a decent education to which you insist that your own children are entitled. There is no spin that you can put on this, to hide the underlying bigotry and elitism on which it is based.

    You even argue that allowing these children from poor neighborhoods to go to school with your children will hurt “property values” in your neighborhood. I seem to remember, from when I was very young, hearing such arguments being made against allowing black people to move into “white” neighborhoods.

    Indeed, for these poor and disadvantaged children, a decent education is the one most important key to enabling them to escape the poverty from which they came, and to have a shot at producing a next generation that isn't saddled with those same disadvantages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Hell no.

    Good public schools are a big reason why certain property values are high. People want to live in the good school districts so that their kids can go there and get a good education, so they pay a premium for it.

    If you start bussing kids in from the inner city, that crashes the property values in pretty much every suburban development in America.

    Screw that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    The good schools are only good because the kids perform better and the environment is safer and better for both teachers and kids.

    The kids perform better because they come from solid families.

    If you start bringing kids in to the school who have problems at home, who are used to violence on their streets, then they will bring those problems with them to the suburbs.

    The suburban kids and parents didn't ask for that. It's not fair to them. So now you're going to lower the quality of their school and lower their property values at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Social engineering is exactly what it is. Under this system, parents will no longer be able to relocate to areas where they know their kids will be safe and get a good education. Vouchers would mean that any kid from the inner city could show up at a nice suburban school.

    I have nothing against the inner city, the kids from there, or their families. I'm sure some of those families are great. But as a future parent, this kind of talk really concerns me. I don't want my kids to grow up around drugs, violence, bullying, and so forth.

    My kids are not lab rats. I have every right to protect them and the system that currently benefits them.

    Experiment somewhere else, and don't dump your inner city problems on my neighborhood.
    Last edited by Bob Blaylock; 02-01-14 at 06:50 PM. Reason: May Laurence Tureaud have compassion toward you.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  2. #342
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    The NCSPE is not affiliated with the NEA. They show a wide variety of research results. Rather than looking at that research you give me one example of a school in Milwaukee that is raising the high costs to educate their students through private means. That IS NOT the norm. If it was, the high costs of vouchers for private schools wouldn't be an issue or even be addressed in the states that are using this method. Again, comparing public schools to private or charter which can cherry pick and/or control student population by getting rid of certain students is not a fair comparison anyway.
    No, I am speaking as a parent and former school board member and current school volunteer that knows the 'research' cited in the NCSPE article you posted is not typical for anything I've seen. Yes, I posted an example of one voucher program that is working splendidly--there is nothing wrong with private funding involvement and that should definitely be encouraged--and I also cited the results we are seeing in our own local schools. I did not dismiss your 'evidence' presented, but questioned its source before being willing to buy into it as a reliable source. Perhaps you could point me to a reliable source that would answer the questions I have about it. The article was very typical of the kinds of things I have seen promoted by the NEA. I was not able to determine who the group is affiliated with so I would be interested to know how you know it is not associated with the NEA.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #343
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    No, I am speaking as a parent and former school board member and current school volunteer that knows the 'research' cited in the NCSPE article you posted is not typical for anything I've seen. Yes, I posted an example of one voucher program that is working splendidly--there is nothing wrong with private funding involvement and that should definitely be encouraged--and I also cited the results we are seeing in our own local schools. I did not dismiss your 'evidence' presented, but questioned its source before being willing to buy into it as a reliable source. Perhaps you could point me to a reliable source that would answer the questions I have about it. The article was very typical of the kinds of things I have seen promoted by the NEA. I was not able to determine who the group is affiliated with so I would be interested to know how you know it is not associated with the NEA.
    Um, there were several research papers mentioned that were implemented. None showed that voucher programs have better results, but I'll sit and wait for you to produce one to the contrary instead of giving me anecdotal evidence . TIA

    Also the NCSPE is not funded or affiliated with the NEA. The research papers were not even the work of the NCSPE. They just mentioned the research that was done and compared them.

    NCSPE: Funding

  4. #344
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Hey Rabbit. . . . .this is interesting yes? I was doing a bit more research on the NCSPE and look what the NEA linked to its own Policy Brief. So never mind trying to wiggle out of your insistence that there is no relationship beween the two organizations.

    An NEA policy brief - National Education Associationwww.nea.org/assets/docs/PB07a_Vouchers_Alternative09.pdf · PDF file
    An NEA policy brief ... education programs and practices supported ... of Privatization in Education, 2006, www.ncspe.org/ publications_files/OP111.pdf.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  5. #345
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Hey Rabbit. . . . .this is interesting yes? I was doing a bit more research on the NCSPE and look what the NEA linked to its own Policy Brief. So never mind trying to wiggle out of your insistence that there is no relationship beween the two organizations.

    An NEA policy brief - National Education Associationwww.nea.org/assets/docs/PB07a_Vouchers_Alternative09.pdf · PDF file
    An NEA policy brief ... education programs and practices supported ... of Privatization in Education, 2006, www.ncspe.org/ publications_files/OP111.pdf.
    Just because the NEA sited them for a study does not mean they are funded or affiliated with that organization. Ridiculous

  6. #346
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    You're aware that private schools must meet minimum standards set forth by the state dept of education, right?
    not in my state
    neither are their any minimum performance standards for home schooled kids
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  7. #347
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I'm glad you agree with me that private schools don't provide a better education at a lower cost than public schools.
    No, I do not agree with this. Not when the true cost of the private school honestly includes the taxes that the parents of the private school students are still having to payto support the public schools that they are not using, on top of the tuition that they are paying to the private school.


    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Everybody in the community pays taxes for public schools including businesses and people that have never and will never have children. To continue harping that parents have to "pay double" is pure crap. You sound like those idiots who think they get paid double-time-and-a-half for working a holiday. At best it's ignorance, at worst it's pure deception.
    Not crap at all. The plain, pure truth.

    What if government wants to give everyone a Chevrolet automobile,but we all have to pay a tax to cover the cost of this.

    How can Ford compete? If I want to buy a Ford, I can, but I don't get the “free” Chevrolet, that I still have to pay for in taxes. I'd be paying for two cars, and only getting one.

    A parent with a child in a private school has to pay for two schools, while only getting the benefit of one. It's unfair to the parent, it's unfair to the private school, which doesn't get to compete on a level field with the “free” taxpayer-funded public school, and it's unfair most of all to the child who will most likely wind up in an inferior public school, because the parents can't afford to pay for both schools while only receiving the services of one.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  8. #348
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Just because the NEA sited them for a study does not mean they are funded or affiliated with that organization. Ridiculous
    Sure does support my observation that the link you posted looks an awful lot like the stuff I see the NEA using to fight the voucher programs or anything else that might upset the status quo in education though.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #349
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Actually why not? This issue of separation of church and state is one of preventing any one religion from being a ruling factor in the running of the country. As long as there is no restrictions on which "religious" school are being attended (or lack of religion) then the principle is not violated. I find your view as one that goes too far in the separation of church and state.
    This seems a good place to point something out.

    Before government stuck its nose into education, schools were privately-run businesses, and parents were expected to pay the schools directly for schooling their children.

    In a big enough market, there could be several schools to choose from; some affiliated with religious organizations, and perhaps even teaching principles specific to that religion; others secular.

    In this sort of market, nobody would reasonably question the parents' right to send their child to the school of their choice, regardless of any religious affiliation, religious teaching, or lack thereof.

    By taxing us to pay for schooling, government has taken some of this responsibility away from parents. I do not believe, that in so doing, that there is any reasonable argument to be made that this in any way diminishes the rights of the parents to choose how and where their child will be educated; religious or not.

    In my view, it is not a violation of the First Amendment for taxpayer funded vouchers to be used to fund schooling at openly-religious schools. In fact, in my view, it blatantly violates the First Amendment for government to discriminate against religious schools, or against the parents who wish to send their children thereto. That choice still belongs to the parents; and for that matter, so does the tax money that government is taking from them to be used for educating their children. The money belongs to the people, and it is the people, not government, that has the rightful authority to determine how it is best to be used.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  10. #350
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Sure does support my observation that the link you posted looks an awful lot like the stuff I see the NEA using to fight the voucher programs or anything else that might upset the status quo in education though.
    It's not but I'm still waiting for your proof. Also, feel free to dispute any of the research done rather than attacking the source which is pretty common when one doesn't have a leg to stand on.

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