View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #331
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    And the administration is pushing to have children go to pre-schools as early as age 2? As Red Riding Hood said to the wolf: "What big teeth you have, Grandmother!" And we all know the reply....

    Greetings, Vesper.
    Yeah and of course this pre-school program Obama is talking about will no doubt be part of Common Core as well giving the Federal Government complete control over and deciding what they should be taught. I guess the earlier the government can get hold of our children it will be easier for them to mold them into little subordinate cogs.
    Last edited by vesper; 02-01-14 at 12:30 PM.

  2. #332
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    No, your premise is incorrect. While, I agree there is money to be made, that does not mean money to be made will improve student outcome. One way money can be made is by streamlining children. Streamlining can take on different forms. The least expensive way to streamline is to a) accept only those who have potential whether through ability or parental support or a combination of the two b) getting rid of those children who lack one or both of the above. What you create is schools with high ability children with active parental support and schools with children who struggle due to a host of issues. We basically do that now but the biggest difference between what is being pushed today and what we had is now more money being funneled away from those who need it most setting them up for failure at the gate. Instead of taking money away from the most vulnerable schools that lack resources that many wealthy schools may not even need, we should be better funding them for resources such as social services within the school. For instance, children coming from a violent/abusive background need mental health services available. If a child is experiencing PTS during the school day, shoving them in the back of a classroom where they won't distract others is not sufficient for anybody's learning experience. Now with that said, what profit making institution wants to take on that sort of clientele? It is easier for a system to streamline them to those super expensive private prisons who just happen to make a profit off the taxpayer's dime. Not really a solution.
    All I am saying is that vouchers can help enable a parent to put the child into a good school. And if enough parents use those vouchers to put the kids into good schools, those good schools will prosper and the poor and failing schools won't. So, if those running the poor and failing schools want to keep their jobs, they will do what they have to do to turn those poor and failing schools into good schools. If they don't, those bad schools close which is exactly what should happen to them.

    The American free enterprise system has been pretty reliable to provide people with what they want if the people can afford to get it. And it is the best products and services at an affordable price that inevitably win out and prosper most in the free market. Thus, in a free market, we enjoy better products and a more affordable cost. There is no reason to believe that allowing school choice to create the same kind of competition between schools won't also result in a better product at a more affordable cost.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #333
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    All I am saying is that vouchers can help enable a parent to put the child into a good school. And if enough parents use those vouchers to put the kids into good schools, those good schools will prosper and the poor and failing schools won't. So, if those running the poor and failing schools want to keep their jobs, they will do what they have to do to turn those poor and failing schools into good schools. If they don't, those bad schools close which is exactly what should happen to them.

    The American free enterprise system has been pretty reliable to provide people with what they want if the people can afford to get it. And it is the best products and services at an affordable price that inevitably win out and prosper most in the free market. Thus, in a free market, we enjoy better products and a more affordable cost. There is no reason to believe that allowing school choice to create the same kind of competition between schools won't also result in a better product at a more affordable cost.
    Truth be told, under the so called free market approach, places that have established lifting the cap and income levels of students to attend private schools with public money have actually increased cost (as much as double if not more in some places) because not only are people paying for children who would attend a public school, but also for students who want to attend a private school setting. Sadly, this expensive experiment hasn't produced better outcomes---just more money. If people are okay with that so be it. As long as they aren't lying to themselves thinking that it has solved any real problems.

    Advocates for vouchers often point to cost savings and private school quality to justify the use of tax dollars for private school tuition, but the cost for Indiana taxpayers has risen from $36 million last year to a whopping $81 million this year. Vouchers a distraction from public education needs

    Tuition vouchers are estimated to cost $100 million in the first year and $250 million in the second year. By the third year, with an anticipated annual cost of $1 billion or more, the voucher program is expected to further expand its student eligibility; no school district will be immune to the cost of vouchers. School vouchers are too expensive | PennLive.com

    The cost to taxpayers for the first year’s 2,000 vouchers is $8.5 million. But by the time this year’s kindergartners are high school seniors, as many as 26,000 students will be getting income-based vouchers worth over $110 million. Those numbers will be even higher if legislators boost the number or worth of the vouchers in coming years. The cost to taxpayers for the first year’s 2,000 vouchers is $8.5 million. But by the time this year’s kindergartners are high school seniors, as many as 26,000 students will be getting income-based vouchers worth over $110 million. Those numbers will be even higher if legislators boost the number or worth of the vouchers in coming years. School voucher programs expand, giving Ohio more programs than any other state | cleveland.com

    Student outcome- Overall, the study demonstrates that demographic differences between
    students in public and private schools more than account for the relatively high raw scores of
    private schools. Indeed, after controlling for these differences, the presumably advantageous
    “private school effect” disappears, and even reverses in most cases.
    http://ncspe.org/publications_files/OP111.pdf

  4. #334
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Truth be told, under the so called free market approach, places that have established lifting the cap and income levels of students to attend private schools with public money have actually increased cost (as much as double if not more in some places) because not only are people paying for children who would attend a public school, but also for students who want to attend a private school setting. Sadly, this expensive experiment hasn't produced better outcomes---just more money. If people are okay with that so be it. As long as they aren't lying to themselves thinking that it has solved any real problems.

    Advocates for vouchers often point to cost savings and private school quality to justify the use of tax dollars for private school tuition, but the cost for Indiana taxpayers has risen from $36 million last year to a whopping $81 million this year. Vouchers a distraction from public education needs

    Tuition vouchers are estimated to cost $100 million in the first year and $250 million in the second year. By the third year, with an anticipated annual cost of $1 billion or more, the voucher program is expected to further expand its student eligibility; no school district will be immune to the cost of vouchers. School vouchers are too expensive | PennLive.com

    The cost to taxpayers for the first year’s 2,000 vouchers is $8.5 million. But by the time this year’s kindergartners are high school seniors, as many as 26,000 students will be getting income-based vouchers worth over $110 million. Those numbers will be even higher if legislators boost the number or worth of the vouchers in coming years. The cost to taxpayers for the first year’s 2,000 vouchers is $8.5 million. But by the time this year’s kindergartners are high school seniors, as many as 26,000 students will be getting income-based vouchers worth over $110 million. Those numbers will be even higher if legislators boost the number or worth of the vouchers in coming years. School voucher programs expand, giving Ohio more programs than any other state | cleveland.com

    Student outcome- Overall, the study demonstrates that demographic differences between
    students in public and private schools more than account for the relatively high raw scores of
    private schools. Indeed, after controlling for these differences, the presumably advantageous
    “private school effect” disappears, and even reverses in most cases.
    http://ncspe.org/publications_files/OP111.pdf
    I'm a little suspicious of this organization (the NCSPE) as it gives no information on who founded it, who it is affiliated with, and/or where it gets its funding. I suspect it is a tool of the NEA or other such organization who is trying to preserve the status quo in public education any way that it can.

    I simply find too many success stories of the voucher programs like this one is Wisconsin:

    Whole story here:
    WI school vouchers: 'Working miracles on the south side' « Watchdog.org
    Excerpt
    Voucher schools like Notre Dame receive about half of the $13,000 per student in state aid that Milwaukee’s public schools get. The 6 percent of students who don’t qualify for vouchers pay $1,500 in tuition. The school raises another approximately$1 million privately to help defray the costs.
    And I am seeing these kinds of results reported all over the country.

    Charter Schools in our area, for instance, compete with the public schools, parochial schools, and private schools here. The latest results published show that graduation rates in the Parochial schools and private schools are close to 100%. The Charter Schools are producing graduation rates at well into the 90 percentile. The public schools turned in a dismal 73% graduation rate. And contrary to popular theory, it isn't the rich, more advantaged kids going to the charter schools but the population has a majority of lower income and/or minority students.

    School choice makes a huge difference. If vouchers can encourage it, I'm pretty sure it will be an economical solution as well as a huge benefit to the kids.
    Last edited by AlbqOwl; 02-01-14 at 04:40 PM.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  5. #335
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire X View Post
    Freedom of religion =/= freedom from education

    If the government is going to require schooling, it certainly needs to require for the sciences to be taught properly. As for sex ed, that is necessary for public health reasons. Crappy parents don't always teach their kids those things.
    Are you claiming that it is not taught in private schools?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  6. #336
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    i have a problem with my tax dollars being used to fund indoctrination in the form of an education. public dollars should not be used to teach students that evolution is an invalid theory, that the earth is only 6000 years old, that the Bible is the infallible word of G_d. tax money should not be used to underwrite the teachings of fundamentalists, including those within the American taliban, who believe the races - and sexes - should be segregated. let them spew their crap as they have a right to do ... only not using our tax dollars to do so
    You're aware that private schools must meet minimum standards set forth by the state dept of education, right?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

  7. #337
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Are you claiming that it is not taught in private schools?
    Even if they do not, the proof will be in how the kids perform on their SAT's and other college admission requirements. Home schooled kids are scoring significantly better than public schooled kids on such college entry requirements and the parochial and private schools also turn in almost as good results. When we take away the right of the parent to choose how his/her child will be educated and give that over to the state to determine, we are done as a constitutional republic founded on a concept of unalienable rights and individual liberty.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #338
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I'm a little suspicious of this organization (the NCSPE) as it gives no information on who founded it, who it is affiliated with, and/or where it gets its funding. I suspect it is a tool of the NEA or other such organization who is trying to preserve the status quo in public education any way that it can.

    I simply find too many success stories of the voucher programs like this one is Wisconsin:

    Whole story here:
    WI school vouchers: 'Working miracles on the south side' « Watchdog.org
    Excerpt


    And I am seeing these kinds of results reported all over the country.

    Charter Schools in our area, for instance, compete with the public schools, parochial schools, and private schools here. The latest results published show that graduation rates in the Parochial schools and private schools are close to 100%. The Charter Schools are producing graduation rates at well into the 90 percentile. The public schools turned in a dismal 73% graduation rate. And contrary to popular theory, it isn't the rich, more advantaged kids going to the charter schools but the population has a majority of lower income and/or minority students.

    School choice makes a huge difference. If vouchers can encourage it, I'm pretty sure it will be an economical solution as well as a huge benefit to the kids.
    The NCSPE is not affiliated with the NEA. They show a wide variety of research results. Rather than looking at that research you give me one example of a school in Milwaukee that is raising the high costs to educate their students through private means. That IS NOT the norm. If it was, the high costs of vouchers for private schools wouldn't be an issue or even be addressed in the states that are using this method. Again, comparing public schools to private or charter which can cherry pick and/or control student population by getting rid of certain students is not a fair comparison anyway.

  9. #339
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    You're aware that private schools must meet minimum standards set forth by the state dept of education, right?
    Not necessarily. Many states that use the voucher program for private schools don't have that accountability.

  10. #340
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Because the parents care enough to find a better school for their child. The oft cited cause is that its the parents' fault for lack of caring, yes?
    Caring has very little to do with it. Kids who live in the inner city might have parents who care about them but aren't around very often. A single mother working two jobs to make ends meet is not going to be able to give her kid the attention he needs even though she might care about him very much.

    Parental guidance, more so than caring, is often what separates well-behaved children who succeed from ill behaved children who fail in school.

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