View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #311
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    But previously, you said…

    …in effect, claiming that the good schools are that way because the area that they serve has a higher tax base, generating more revenue to support a better school. And further, you're OK with this, and opposed to undermining it, because those residents in the good neighborhoods are paying a premium in taxes to support their good schools, and it's unfair to offer the services of their good schools to poor students whose parents aren't paying the same higher taxes, and it would hurt the property values in the good, high-tax-paying neighborhood.

    So, from where is the money to come to pay for the improvements that you want to be made to the bad schools? By your own claims, they are the way they are because there isn't the tax base to support them being any better.
    It seems like you're trying to catch me contradicting myself, but I've been consistent this entire thread. There isn't one factor alone that makes a school "good" or "bad." It's a combination of a lot of things.

    First and most importantly, the right kind of kids make a good school. Kids who come from good family situations are more likely to get good grades, more likely to stay out of trouble, and more likely to be a good influence on other kids. This is backed by statistics, it's not an opinion.

    Second, good teachers make a good school. The best teachers are drawn to safe neighborhoods where the kids are well-behaved and teachable. They are also drawn to getting the best salary possible. This is in most cases - of course there are always the saints among us who could get a job in a nice area but choose to teach in the inner city because they want to make a difference. But those teachers are rare.

    Third, good facilities make a good school. This comes down to money, which is determined by tax contributions as previously discussed.

    So there you go.

    You also asked me how we would pay for bringing up inner city schooling. Well, there are dollars spent on the federal and state level already toward this end. This is done to supplement what they get from local taxes, and the programs are already in place. I'm not in favor of doing anything radically different from what's already in place, I simply suggest we increase the funding to existing programs and appoint local education czars to see that it's appropriated correctly and that the schools continually progress according to a given set of metrics.

  2. #312
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Sometimes, the apple cart needs upsetting.

    Both you and I identify as “Very Conservative”. But I am beginning to wonder, now, if you might be a Poe. In this thread, you seem to be rather openly exhibiting much of the same exaggerated bigotry and elitism of which liberals like to falsely accuse conservatives; you seem to be intentionally playing the liberal stereotype of a conservative, rather than expressing what most true conservatives would accept and understand as conservative values.
    I have no idea what a Poe is, and my views are my own... I really don't care about political labels or what other conservatives believe. I agree with liberals on plenty of things, but not on this one.

    You throw words like "bigot" out there pretty easily, yet I bet you can't back it up with any kind of justification. How have I said anything remotely bigoted?

    I'm the farthest thing from a bigot you'll ever find, so I find that to be laughable. You claim to be conservative. Tell me this: if my hard work doesn't enable me to provide for my family any better than the single mom on welfare, what's my incentive to work hard? Luxury cars? Forget that, I work hard to provide for my family, not for shiny things. Take that away and we might as well be communists.

  3. #313
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire X View Post
    One exception to freedom that modern society has decided upon is that minors will be forced to be educated until the age of 18. The basis of this education will be reading, writing, mathematics, the sciences, etc. Religion is allowed in private schools, but it should not be allowed in place of science, instead only in addition to it.
    That's the opinion of the majority, but it's not everyone's opinion. Luckily, in America we have a choice. Those people who would rather have their kids learn creationism have that option. Nobody is forced to go to that school.

    I will also add - it would be a good thing if more people in this country were religious. As religion fades, so does our concept of family values, and this is seen in everything from divorce statistics to the number of children being born to single mothers. As religion teaches us strong family values, it would be nice to have a little more of this in modern America.

  4. #314
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    I don't think there's ever been an opportunity for a fair comparison.

    Private schools start out at a very strong disadvantage in the marketplace. Public schools are “free”. Parents can send their children there, without any cost beyond the taxes that they already have to pay regardless of whether they have children or where they send those children for schooling.

    To send a child to a private school, the parents have to pay the full cost of that school's tuition, on top of what they still have to pay in taxes to support the public school that they are choosing not to use.

    Private schools are not going to be able to get any students, other than those whose parents can afford the additional tuition, and are convinced that it is worth the cost to send their children there.

    The market is heavily skewed in favor of the public schools.

    Really, that's the whole point of this discussion—whether the market should somehow be leveled to give private schools a fair chance to compete on even terms with public schools. Only when the market is thus leveled will we ever really be able to see for sure which kind of school can really outperform the other.

    Nothing is going to improve. All you're going to get is a bunch of soccer moms in their minivans having to drive 30 minutes farther to get their kids to school than they used to.

    We're still working with the same basic ingredients: the same families, the same teachers, the same administrators. All you're accomplishing with this is to shuffle the deck around a little bit.

  5. #315
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The emphasis for improving education should be on making all public schools equally high quality. Resources should not be directed towards providing more choices until the quality level is excellent and equally good throughout the USA. If anything, more resources should be provided to the schools with the most difficult students such as the poor, English learners and the children of uneducated parents.

    I do not support vouchers for private schools and I am also opposed to charter schools and most other special schools. Those special schools provide an illusion of progress by selecting their students and by attracting the parents and students most likely to succeed. Both vouchers and charter schools reinforce educational inequality and serve a hidden agenda to bust unions, privatize education and provide taxpayer funding for religious organizations. The voucher scheme is also a gift to those religious groups that are opposed to providing the scientific facts about evolution and sexuality in the schools.

    I compare vouchers to the following situation: A small town has problems with the quality of the water it provides to residents. Instead of directly addressing the cause of the quality problem it subsidizes coupons sent to residents so that they can get a discount on the purchase of bottled water. The result is that the wealthier people in town buy more bottled water, the poor still can't afford bottled water even with the discount, and the quality of the publicly provided water never improves because all of the money that could have been used for improvements was spent on subsidizing the coupons.
    Hard Truth, here is some hard truth for you.
    In some school districts especially in inner cities, the amount of money we taxpayers put into security just trying to make sure there will be no knife/gun fights or selling of drugs is very expensive. We have gone that route of building new schools in these areas only to see them turned into slums within a year or two. Tables/chairs broken, bathrooms destroyed, graffetti marking up the walls. Destruction of books and computers. All for not! Some areas are just not worth investing another dime if possible. But within those areas there are those who really do want to learn but are losing out because the heathens populating the school take just about every spare minute a teacher has just trying to keep order taking away precious time to present the lesson. The kids who are wanting to learn are at a disadvantage and will remain so unless they have a way out of the Hell hole they are living. The behavioral problems for the most part can be linked to those who do not have a stable home life. Many are from single mother homes and truth be known if you asked them "who's your daddy?" they wouldn't be able to answer. Others live in homes where daddy may be a junkie or mama a ho. We all know these life choices result in a life of poverty and for the most part children are not well supervised. The parents do not show a responsible example to their children. Teachers can only do so much God love them. So until you can come up with a way to make women stop having babies out of wedlock and parents engaging in things like drug abuse which all leads to a life of poverty for their children, then the best thing we can do for the children that are trapped in that situation who truly want to learn is to provide them with vouchers so that they can see for themselves and experience an atmosphere where learning is respected.
    Last edited by vesper; 02-01-14 at 03:35 AM.

  6. #316
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Hard Truth, here is some hard truth for you.
    In some school districts especially in inner cities, the amount of money we taxpayers put into security just trying to make sure there will be no knife/gun fights or selling of drugs is very expensive. We have gone that route of building new schools in these areas only to see them turned into slums within a year or two. Tables/chairs broken, bathrooms destroyed, graffetti marking up the walls. Destruction of books and computers. All for not! Some areas are just not worth investing another dime if possible. But within those areas there are those who really do want to learn but are losing out because the heathens populating the school take just about every spare minute a teacher has just trying to keep order taking away precious time to present the lesson. The kids who are wanting to learn are at a disadvantage and will remain so unless they have a way out of the Hell hole they are living. The behavioral problems for the most part can be linked to those who do not have a stable home life. Many are from single mother homes and truth be known if you asked them "who's your daddy?" they wouldn't be able to answer. Others live in homes where daddy may be a junkie or mama a ho. We all know these life choices result in a life of poverty and for the most part children are not well supervised. The parents do not show a responsible example to their children. Teachers can only do so much God love them.
    Under the proposed system, how are you going to stop the bad kids from coming to the nice suburban schools and giving them problems they don't need? That's unfair to the people who live out in the suburbs and didn't ask for those problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    So until you can come up with a way to make women stop having babies out of wedlock and parents engaging in things like drug abuse which all leads to a life of poverty for their children, then the best thing we can do for the children that are trapped in that situation who truly want to learn is to provide them with vouchers so that they can see for themselves and experience an atmosphere where learning is respected.
    He's called Jesus.

  7. #317
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    There, fixed it for you ...
    Cute. But again wrong.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #318
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    I don't think there's ever been an opportunity for a fair comparison.

    Private schools start out at a very strong disadvantage in the marketplace. Public schools are “free”. Parents can send their children there, without any cost beyond the taxes that they already have to pay regardless of whether they have children or where they send those children for schooling.

    Private schools are not going to be able to get any students, other than those whose parents can afford the additional tuition, and are convinced that it is worth the cost to send their children there.

    The market is heavily skewed in favor of the public schools.

    Really, that's the whole point of this discussion—whether the market should somehow be leveled to give private schools a fair chance to compete on even terms with public schools. Only when the market is thus leveled will we ever really be able to see for sure which kind of school can really outperform the other.
    I'm glad you agree with me that private schools don't provide a better education at a lower cost than public schools.





    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    To send a child to a private school, the parents have to pay the full cost of that school's tuition, on top of what they still have to pay in taxes to support the public school that they are choosing not to use.
    Everybody in the community pays taxes for public schools including businesses and people that have never and will never have children. To continue harping that parents have to "pay double" is pure crap. You sound like those idiots who think they get paid double-time-and-a-half for working a holiday. At best it's ignorance, at worst it's pure deception.
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  9. #319
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Cute. But again wrong.
    Not at all. Your scheme called for extra money to be spent on schooling. To me that spells "financial ability", not willingness.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #320
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    How do you know it won't just water down the good schools?
    Because the parents care enough to find a better school for their child. The oft cited cause is that its the parents' fault for lack of caring, yes?
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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