View Poll Results: Do you support school choice?

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  • Yes

    69 67.65%
  • Yes but with certain exceptions. (Please list those exceptions.)

    16 15.69%
  • No, students should only go to schools in their public school district.

    4 3.92%
  • other

    10 9.80%
  • I do not know

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Do you support school choice?

  1. #261
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    That's your opinion. I disagree with it.
    Tell me if wrong, but my impression from your posts is that your opinion is that it is acceptable to provide government funds to religious organizations that discriminate and promote religion.

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    If and when they break the law, we arrest them. If and when they commit a capital crime, we execute them. That's how our system works. While it's probably obvious which way they're going to go eventually, we don't proactively arrest people because we think they might do something wrong.
    Since most of the kids that you want to see "out in the cold where they belong" will end up getting "a monthly government check" from society or end up criminals or in prison, why waste time?

    How about instead of throwing kids away like they are trash we fund programs that deal with their behavioral and psychological problems while they are young and can get back on track with their education? There are programs that have been proven to work. They are expensive but cheaper than the cost of providing a lifetime of welfare and/or incarceration to those kids.

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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetelestai View Post
    Maybe I wasn't clear about my answer. I'll try to explain further. Yes, teachers will be laid off. Unfortunately, in the unionized states, it will be done by seniority. The buildings are already there, so that's not an issue. Funding will fall, but so will enrollment, so costs go down as well. I believe that things will change very quickly at this point. Public school will retool, retrain and revamp into a smarter, more efficient and fiscally responsible format in order to compete. If done right and at the right time, I don't think there will be a lasting negative impact on the remaining students. Plus, I think that more local private schools will be started in order to try and claim the tax moneys that those students represent. There will be a place for them. The money is already there. What would help even more is to take school funding off the property tax and make it a new sales tax. That way everybody is paying into the system, rather than just the property owners. I don't even think it would take that much of a sales tax.
    I don't care about teachers being laid off. I'm from Wisconsin; and voted for Scott Walker twice. What I'm only worried about the kids that are left in failing schools ... there's still a large number of kids that don't have the advantage an hour morning trek out of their school district, or nifty options to go to private schools. In Wisconsin, that includes most all children in the inner cities, kids the most rural parts of the state and on the Indian reservations.

    Moreover a school that is stripped of its funding cannot "retool, retrain and revamp". You're making an absolutely stupid claim that schools will be able create better curriculums, buy new and better textbooks/equipment, hire solid teachers and maintain the necessary physical facilities without funding. That’s laughable and quite frankly impossible, and it sacrifices the educations of hundreds of kids.

    As if any business, government, football franchise or any other institution can complete revamp itself without having a dollar to its name; you CAN'T poach new employees, new coaches/managers, have the necessary systems and equipment without funding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetelestai View Post
    But you haven't answered my question...

    Are you saying that we have to keep all of the kids that are presently in failing public schools in order to protect the teachers that are causing the school to fail?

    Here's another question...

    Are you saying that we have to keep kids in a failing school that could otherwise be put in good schools in order to cater to those that don't want/ can't go to better schools? How does that help the country's problem with lost competitiveness due to failing education?
    You're trying to derail.

    1. No, we need to keep funding in schools to protect our kids. Again, I'm from Wisconsin. Gov. Walker got rid of tenure and our public school systems have the complete freedom to fire poor performing teaches at will. You're the one making this about teachers, and ignoring the kids.

    2. Kids that are deprived of education usually grow up to be gangbangers and shoot up our cities. You seem to believe that we only ought give an primary-level education to those that can afford to have a primary-level education; which is completely contradictory to the whole fracking reason we have compulsory education and a public school system in the US.

    There will always be the option to pay a tuition and go to a private school, or to homeschool. That's completely reasonable and is two ideas that I fully support. However if you wish to take a hatchet to the enrollment numbers of our public schools by forcibly deporting kids out of poor performance schools; the most you're going to accomplish is decimating education funding by spreading it paper thin, and making everyone worse off and less educated in the process.
    Last edited by brothern; 01-31-14 at 03:02 PM.
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    I made clear that improving the quality level of underperforming schools is the goal.

    When everything else is equal, better funded schools do better. Yes, it is possible to waste money and produce no results. Yes, parental involvement and the parent's educational background will have a great impact on the effectiveness of education. But a well run school with money will do better with even the toughest students than an equivalent challenged school that is underfunded. Fully funding schools with challenging students to he point that they attract the best teachers has barely been tried, but it does work when done properly. Giving up on the challenge of educating the difficult kids is not acceptable unless we want to sustain or increase the ranks of our underclass criminals and prisons. (an outcome acceptable only to selfish and heartless conservatives and libertarians) Vouchers, charter schools and other privatization schemes are all plans to help the privileged by refusing to provide poor and challenged kids with an education at the same quality as provided to everyone else.

    The goal should be to educate all children.
    No, 'better funded' schools is not the answer. If 'better funding' was the answer, the USA would be in the top 1 percentile of school excellence in the world because we are in the top 1 percentile of funding per capita in the world. Only Denmark, Switzerland, and Austria outspend us and they only by a very small amount ranging from less than $100 to a few hundred dollars. But we are way down on the list in all the core subjects. Even some third world countries beat us. Washington DC has the highest per capita spending per student in the world and yet is among the cities with the worst performing public schools.

    Funding won't solve the problem. Only a total attitude change re education will solve the problem. And we can begin by getting the federal government out of it altogether.
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  5. #265
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Since most of the kids that you want to see "out in the cold where they belong" will end up getting "a monthly government check" from society or end up criminals or in prison, why waste time?
    Because that's not the way the system works. We don't got to extremes like that.

    How about instead of throwing kids away like they are trash we fund programs that deal with their behavioral and psychological problems while they are young and can get back on track with their education? There are programs that have been proven to work. They are expensive but cheaper than the cost of providing a lifetime of welfare and/or incarceration to those kids.
    I'm entirely fine with that, the problem is that there are a lot of people out there who don't want such programs because they fear telling poor parents and sub-cultures that their techniques and cultures have failed. They don't want to tell ghetto parents that the way they've chosen to live their lives for generations is damaging. It might make them feel bad! I absolutely think we should teach children how to live responsible lives, regardless of what they hear from their parents who have a hand out to the government. Unfortunately for the Democrats, if we do that, we cost them future voters.
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    I don't care about teachers being laid off. I'm from Wisconsin; and voted for Scott Walker twice. What I'm only worried about the kids that are left in failing schools ... there's still a large number of kids that don't have the advantage an hour morning trek out of their school district, or nifty options to go to private schools. In Wisconsin, that includes most all children in the inner cities, kids the most rural parts of the state and on the Indian reservations.

    Moreover a school that is stripped of its funding cannot "retool, retrain and revamp". You're making an absolutely stupid claim that schools will be able create better curriculums, buy new and better textbooks/equipment, hire solid teachers and maintain the necessary physical facilities without funding. That’s laughable and quite frankly impossible, and it sacrifices the educations of hundreds of kids.

    As if any business, government, football franchise or any other institution can complete revamp itself without having a dollar to its name; you CAN'T poach new employees, new coaches/managers, have the necessary systems and equipment without funding.


    You're trying to derail.

    1. No, we need to keep funding in schools to protect our kids. Again, I'm from Wisconsin. Gov. Walker got rid of tenure and our public school systems have the complete freedom to fire poor performing teaches at will. You're the one making this about teachers, and ignoring the kids.

    2. Kids that are deprived of education usually grow up to be gangbangers and shoot up our cities. You seem to believe that we only ought give an primary-level education to those that can afford to have a primary-level education; which is completely contradictory to the whole fracking reason we have compulsory education and a public school system in the US.

    There will always be the option to pay a tuition and go to a private school, or to homeschool. That's completely reasonable and is two ideas that I fully support. However if you wish to take a hatchet to the enrollment numbers of our public schools by forcibly deporting kids out of poor performance schools; the most you're going to accomplish is decimating education funding by spreading it paper thin, and making everyone worse off and less educated in the process.
    I really don't understand why you can't comprehend what I am saying. It's quite frustrating, really. I said that there are tax dollars that are spent on each child. Say, for example, it's $10,000 a year per child. Unless the child's parents "voluntarily" (that's what school choice means. Nobody ever said anything about "forcing" anybody to go private) move them to another school. The tax dollars for that child that moves would go to the new school. Any child that does not move, their tax dollars would remain with the school they are in. Therefore NOBODY CUTS OFF ALL FUNDING. All this does is forces teachers and public school systems to compete for the privilege to teach our children. rather than just continuing to throw money into a failed system and FORCING our children to go there. If I send my child to private school, my tax dollars are still going to the public school and I am paying twice... just because the teachers and their unions refuse to make common sense changes that make the system more efficient and fiscally responsible. Thus it is you that is forcing a child to go to a particular school through economic control, rather than me.

  7. #267
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Tell me if wrong, but my impression from your posts is that your opinion is that it is acceptable to provide government funds to religious organizations that discriminate and promote religion.
    A school associated with a religion is not a "religious institution" it is a school. And SCOTUS says, yeah, it's acceptable. What wouldn't be acceptable is govt picking and choosing which religious affiliated schools that voucher can be used in. For instance, only if it's a Jewish school, or only if it's a Catholic School, etc, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Nope. The Supreme Court has said otherwise. Schools associated with religions are still "religious institutions" under the Constitution. That is just more attempted creativity to skirt the Constitution, but it has already been recognized as violative by the SCOTUS. Try again.
    No, seriously, please show me SCOTUS's proclamation you claim exists.
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    But the concept of vouchers to improve education is pretty simple.

    If you have the choice of handing over a voucher plus a few thousand more dollars in tuition to a parochial or private school . . . or. . .

    You can have the choice of handing over a voucher to a public school that will provide a positive environment and educate your child as effectively as the parochial or private school and you pay nothing additional. . . .

    Which school will you most likely choose?

    And if teachers, administrators, and school boards want to stay in business, what might they be willing to do to improve education sufficiently that the parents will turn in those vouchers to the public school instead of the parochial or private school?

    As I said, for those willing to provide a top notch education for the kids, it's a win win proposition all the way around.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  10. #270
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    Re: Do you support school choice?

    Hell no.

    Good public schools are a big reason why certain property values are high. People want to live in the good school districts so that their kids can go there and get a good education, so they pay a premium for it.

    If you start bussing kids in from the inner city, that crashes the property values in pretty much every suburban development in America.

    Screw that.

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