Are you pro life or pro choice?

Grand Mal said:

The problem is that making abortion illegal won't prevent abortions, it'll simply drive the practice back underground. Abortion was made legal to prevent the heartbreaking calamities that used to happen to desperate girls in back-alley 'clinics'. There were no rules about the term of pregnancy, no standards of practice or even cleanliness, no follow-up, no recourse, no hope.

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Exactly many women were so desperate not to continue an unwanted pregnancy that even knowing the dangers of a illegal abortions they were willing to risk their lives to end the pregnancy.

From this article:

Repairing the Damage, Before Roe


< SNIP>
I am a retired gynecologist, in my mid-80s. My early formal training in my specialty was spent in New York City, from 1948 to 1953, in two of the city’s large municipal hospitals.

There I saw and treated almost every complication of illegal abortion that one could conjure,
done either by the patient herself or by an abortionist — often unknowing, unskilled and probably uncaring. Yet the patient never told us who did the work, or where and under what conditions it was performed. She was in dire need of our help to complete the process or, as frequently was the case, to correct what damage might have been done.

< SNIP>
The worst case I saw, and one I hope no one else will ever have to face, was that of a nurse who was admitted with what looked like a partly delivered umbilical cord. Yet as soon as we examined her, we realized that what we thought was the cord was in fact part of her intestine, which had been hooked and torn by whatever implement had been used in the abortion.
It took six hours of surgery to remove the infected uterus and ovaries and repair the part of the bowel that was still functional.

It is important to remember that Roe v. Wade did not mean that abortions could be performed. They have always been done, dating from ancient Greek days.

What Roe said was that ending a pregnancy could be carried out by medical personnel, in a medically accepted setting, thus conferring on women, finally, the full rights of first-class citizens — and freeing their doctors to treat them as such.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/h...=1&adxnnlx=1337817945-qUmxUKfKUDcWQfT4MEbi5A&

minnie616 said:

Exactly many women were so desperate not to continue an unwanted pregnancy that even knowing the dangers of a illegal abortions they were willing to risk their lives to end the pregnancy.

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So what?

Why is it you think that would matter?

Peter Grimm said:

Adoption. Simple.

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Not simple.

About half of unwanted pregnancies are aborted.

The other half are carried to term.

Of those carried to term only about 2 percent are given up for adoption.

Most women would prefer to abort a pregnancy than to give a child up for adoption.

Peter Grimm said:

Cool it with the personal attacks. My sister just had a baby, I hung out with her every week as she lives in the same city, I'm pretty tuned in to the process. She was going to work all the way up until she went in to labor, just about. She's taking time off work now but that's because she kept her baby. If she had given it up, she could be back working now.

I don't see any reason someone would have to fail out of school because they were bringing a child to term.

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Congrats to your sister.

It sounds like she had a healthy pregnancy with very few if any complications.

Not everyone is as fortunate to be healthy enough to school or work during their pregnancy.
.......................

I wanted my children. I was married to a wonderful man and I knew if anything ever happened to me, my husband would love and care for our children.

A couple of months after DH and I were married ( over 40 years ago) I thought I had the stomach flu as my stomach was upset and I was vomiting but after a few days I realized I might be pregnant. When I went to doctor and found out that indeed I was "expecting" DH and I were so excited. We had planned to start our family as soon as possible . The doctor wrote a script for the morning sickness and I thought all would be OK.

Only it wasn't Ok. It turns out I had Hyperemesis gravidarum which is an extreme type of morning sickness.

I had to quit my part time job. I had to drop my college classes .
My DH was so good to me and so supportive. He took over the cleaning , laundry,cooking his own meals , as well as working to support us.

I had a very hard time keeping any food down. I could barley even keep a sip of water down. My throat got scarred from constant vomiting. I threw up from 3 to 8 times a day. Every time I would smell food cooking I would throw up. Sometimes I was just throwing up yellow colored stomach acid because I had no food in my stomach. I could only keep down small amounts of saltine crackers and dry cooked popcorn ( no oil)
By the time I was 5 months I had lost more than 10 percent of my body weight because I was so sick.
I was pretty much home bound as I was so weak. I got to the point where I could barely function.

Just think of how you feel when you have the worst stomach flu of your life.

Then think of feeling that way for several months!



My OB/GYN did what he could for me but 40 years ago we did not have the meds or the knowledge about extreme morning sickness that is available today. I had IV's to help with my dehydration. I went in regularly for B-12 injections as I had become very anemic. DH and I had taken Lamaze Classes but when it came for my delivery I was so anemic my OB/GYN was so concerned I would hemmorage that he put me under when he delivered the baby. He had everything set up for a total blood transfusion and wanted me under in case he need to do a complete transfusion.

I was very lucky to have my DH's love and support, both emotional and financial.

I don't think I could have made it had it not been for him, his love, his patience, his support, my loving family members and friends who helped me endure the sickness, the worry, the stress.and the physical barriers I went through.
-----------------------------

Knowing what I went through I could never support a law or a Country that would not allow a woman to choose for herself ( with the possible input of her husband/lover and/or doctor) whether to continue a pregnancy or not.

minnie616 said:

There are only 4 doctors in the USA who perform legal late term abortions and only a small handful of states that allow late term abortions in extreme cases.

.

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You clearly are well read on this. I do appreciate facts (I'm a self professed lover of logic).
Maybe you have some of that info handy....I do know of one place in MA, in a city called Methuen. They are known for twenty week and up procedures...if you have that list on hand, double check it to see if that clinic falls under those four. It's a VERY small clinic.

Dragonfly said:

Wow... in one single post you've managed to completely display a level of ignorance, arrogance, and confusion so deep the Marianas Trench looks like a suburban rain gutter.

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Your personal insults directed at me will not dissuade me. They don't change the facts or real-time situations.

If I have said anything that disturbs your brilliant mind, then make it be known.

(edited)

MichaelJR said:

You clearly are well read on this. I do appreciate facts (I'm a self professed lover of logic).
Maybe you have some of that info handy....I do know of one place in MA, in a city called Methuen. They are known for twenty week and up procedures...if you have that list on hand, double check it to see if that clinic falls under those four. It's a VERY small clinic.

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There are only 4 doctors who perform legal late term abortions at or past 24 weeks gestation ( limit of viability ) for the extreme cases that I listed.


There are more than 4 doctors ( I do not know the count ) who are specially trained to give legal abortions between 20 and 24 weeks gestation.

OB/GYNs perform ultrasounds on pregnant women between 18 to 20 weeks gestation to determine any fetal or genetic abnormalities. In the USA most states do not allow abortions in cases of fetal abnormalities.

The only cases excepted are when fetal abnormalities are incompatible with life for the fetus ( the fetus will be stillborn or will only live a few minutes or hours )
The reason is because if the fetus dies within the womb and is not removed in a timely manner it has a high chance of becoming infected and puts the woman's life at risk.

So most abortions that occur between 20 to 24 weeks gestation are because of genetic or fetal abnormalities some of which are non viable ( fetus will be still born or will only live a few minutes or hours ) and some which might be viable but who might suffer much pain or need multiple surgeries etc.


As I said doctors who legally perform abortions after 20 weeks need special training because it is a law in the US that doctors need to give a fetus at or after 20 weeks gestation a lethal injection before the abortion procedure starts.

Once the injection is given the bones start to soften which also helps to prevent damage to woman's cervix during the abortion procedure.

Edited to add:

The 4 doctors who preform legal abortions after 24 weeks gestation in the extreme cases I mentioned do sometimes travel from state to state to help patients who have these extreme problem pregnancies.

The clinic you mentioned however does not perform legal abortions after 24 weeks gestation.

Zyphlin said:

These two posts highlight the issue with the "pro-life" or "pro-choice" poll and what it could mean. Both of you are in favor of some level of lawful abortions, which per Jamesrage's definition makes you both pro-choice. Yet I'm sure you'd both self identify as "pro-life" in such a poll.

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yes, I just don't like the idea of it being used as birth control

TheNextEra said:

Tell me oh wise one, is birth control 100% effective?

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was for us

Northern Light said:

The poll question is flawed, and as usual people don't understand the proper way to ask these questions.

The two categories are:
Pro-life vs. Pro-abortion
Pro-choice vs. Anti-choice

You can be pro-life (for yourself) yet pro-choice for others. You can also be pro-life and anti-choice.

Likewise, you can be pro-abortion (for yourself, i.e. if I ever get pregnant I'm having an abortion), yet pro-choice or anti-choice for others.

I am pro-life and pro-choice.

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I am pro life 100% but fully understand how abortion is sometimes necessary as well as being the moral and ethical choice. I would never vote for abortion to be outlawed. And because I don't know what is in the heart of or the situation of any woman, I will not presume to judge the choices others make. I agree that the poll options do not allow for the various shades of gray that exist within the issue.

But yes, I want to return to a culture of life in which it is not almost automatic that the unwanted child will be killed.

AGENT J said:

1.) awesome
2.) also awesome
3.) again awesome no problem there i agree
4.) well this is just opinion and one you are free to have but we'll get back to that later

so my question is, do you want RvW changed?

right now has the law stance abortion is legal for any reason up to 24 weeks
this is 3 weeks after earliest possible viability
and at the point of 50%viability meaning a baby born here has a 50% chance or living or dying

abortions after this point are very rare, 1.3% happen after 21 weeks
and the vast majority fit in to your criteria, they are usually don't to spare the mothers live or spare the child in some fashion.

So now there are TWO lives being discussed.

What would you like to happen with Roe vs Wade.

do you want it totally thrown out and all abortions banned unless there IMMEDIATE risk to the mothers life (because the fact is all pregnancies are a risk) and or spare the child in some fashion

abortions are ok in case of rape/incest

you want RvW to remain but be tighter, dropped to 20-21 weeks because thats earliest possible viability

you want the ceiling set even lower

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Thrown out, but that doesn't mean abortions themselves are never to be had in the field of health. Like I said, when the mother's life is truly threatened, a proper medical decision can be made that may or may not involve abortion.

Muhammed said:

Nobody is anti-choice.

People calling themselves "pro-choice" is the height of arrogance and intellectual dishonesty. They really don't want the child to have any choice whatsoever.

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This is just another common irrationality found in pro-lifers....and just written out by 2 people in the last 2 pages: that a fetus could "make a choice."

@_@

And this is a point you attempt to use to change (rational) people's minds??

minnie616 said:

Not everyone is as fortunate to be healthy enough to school or work during their pregnancy.
.......................


A couple of months after DH and I were married ( over 40 years ago) I thought I had the stomach flu as my stomach was upset and I was vomiting but after a few days I realized I might be pregnant. When I went to doctor and found out that indeed I was "expecting" DH and I were so excited. We had planned to start our family as soon as possible . The doctor wrote a script for the morning sickness and I thought all would be OK.

Only it wasn't Ok. It turns out I had Hyperemesis gravidarum which is an extreme type of morning sickness.

I had to quit my part time job. I had to drop my college classes .
My DH was so good to me and so supportive. He took over the cleaning , laundry,cooking his own meals , as well as working to support us.

I had a very hard time keeping any food down. I could barley even keep a sip of water down. My throat got scarred from constant vomiting. I threw up from 3 to 8 times a day. Every time I would smell food cooking I would throw up. Sometimes I was just throwing up yellow colored stomach acid because I had no food in my stomach. I could only keep down small amounts of saltine crackers and dry cooked popcorn ( no oil)
By the time I was 5 months I had lost more than 10 percent of my body weight because I was so sick.
I was pretty much home bound as I was so weak. I got to the point where I could barely function.

Just think of how you feel when you have the worst stomach flu of your life.

Then think of feeling that way for several months!

My OB/GYN did what he could for me but 40 years ago we did not have the meds or the knowledge about extreme morning sickness that is available today. I had IV's to help with my dehydration. I went in regularly for B-12 injections as I had become very anemic. DH and I had taken Lamaze Classes but when it came for my delivery I was so anemic my OB/GYN was so concerned I would hemmorage that he put me under when he delivered the baby. He had everything set up for a total blood transfusion and wanted me under in case he need to do a complete transfusion.

I was very lucky to have my DH's love and support, both emotional and financial.

I don't think I could have made it had it not been for him, his love, his patience, his support, my loving family members and friends who helped me endure the sickness, the worry, the stress.and the physical barriers I went through.
-----------------------------

Knowing what I went through I could never support a law or a Country that would not allow a woman to choose for herself ( with the possible input of her husband/lover and/or doctor) whether to continue a pregnancy or not.

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Thanks Minnie...I explained this to him several times, but perhaps your personal experience will get thru. He completely dismissed what I wrote...including links from the CDC and just came back with...so what? And then didnt understand how disrespectful of women that is. It's like, 'screw their futures, what's a little pain, what's it matter if you never finish college or get a great job that you love?'

Peter Grimm said:

Alright, let's address them.

"In 2008, teen pregnancy and childbirth accounted for nearly $11 billion per year in costs to U.S. taxpayers for increased health care and foster care, 1.) increased incarceration rates among children of teen parents, 2.) and lost tax revenue because of lower educational attainment and income among teen mothers." 1. There is no causal relationship between having a teen mother and ending up in jail 2. There is no way to statistically measure the lost tax revenue due to lower educational attainment because a.) we don't know future tax rates b.) having a baby does not preclude getting an education and therefore... the author pulled this 11 billion figure out of his ass.

"Pregnancy and birth are significant contributors to high school drop out rates among girls. Only about 50% of teen mothers receive a high school diploma by 22 years of age, versus approximately 90% of women who had not given birth during adolescence." Misleading stat because a higher percentage of teen pregnancies occur in minority neighborhoods. Graduation rates in those neighborhoods are generally lower than the national average. Why that matters - teen pregnancy is caused by socioeconomic factors. Lower graduation rates are also caused by socioeconomic factors. Therefore, teen pregnancy does not lead directly to lower graduation, it merely correlates because both occur to a greater extent in the same poor minority neighborhoods

"The children of teenage mothers are more likely to have lower school achievement and drop out of high school, have more health problems, be incarcerated at some time during adolescence, give birth as a teenager, and face unemployment as a young adult." Again you have a case where correlation doesn't imply causation. I would argue that socioeconomic factors are more in play.

So you can throw statistics at me but I've shown you how they can be fudged, and you won't convince me that it's not possible to succeed professionally while raising a family at a young age.

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Nothing was fudged, you just dont like them and every single one goes to support my ONLY claim...that pregnancy and unplanned children can HOLD women back in their futures, either thru limiting their educations or job prospects. And those are all tied to health, medical complications, sick time....and all those things of course add up to socio-economic factors.

There were zero holes in that link or those quotes. They ALL demonstrate how pregnancy or kids that someone is not prepared for IMPACT their futures negatively.

And that was the only claim I made...and you continue to dismiss it, like, 'meh, who cares, she can make up some other way.' No...opportunities are sometimes lost forever. Youth cannot be reclaimed. THere are many great things about motherhood but not if you are not ready or are poor or a jobless teen. It's up to the individual to decide what is best for HER.

Lursa said:

This is just another common irrationality found in pro-lifers....and just written out by 2 people in the last 2 pages: that a fetus could "make a choice."

@_@

And this is a point you attempt to use to change (rational) people's minds??

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But for those of us who know that is a human life, it is pertinent is it not? The infant, the small child, even older children are not able or not always competent to make the proper choices re their welfare either, and it is incumbent upon we who are responsible for them to make choices for them that are in their best interest whether or not that is easy, comfortable, or convenient for us. For the pro lifer, that is just as true for the one too young to be outside the womb.

Peter Grimm said:

How is it disrespectful to women to disallow abortion? You know that there are women who do not believe in abortion as well, are they equally disrespectful to their own gender, or is this just a convenient argument you can use on me due to my gender?

.

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It's disrespectful because you think it doesnt matter how that pregnancy or infant if born, can affect a woman's future. You minimize her right to make the most of her own future.

Well sorry, but thankfully the law says she doesnt have to 'suck it up' and suffer or struggle to finish school or develop her career or be able to devote herself and her $$ to the children she already has.

Of course there are success stories. Lots. And just as many families that end up on public assistance that we have to pay for? And women that never manage to get out of hourly unskilled job? More single mothers that have a harder time finding a husband because she has kids? Kids that are abused by frustrated, stressed single mothers? Kids that end up in the 'system' and then also never reach their potential in life? Yes...a cycle.

Precious gift? Again...that's YOUR judgement...apply it to your own life. I believe in quality of life, not quantity.

AlbqOwl said:

But for those of us who know that is a human life, it is pertinent is it not? The infant, the small child, even older children are not able or not always competent to make the proper choices re their welfare either, and it is incumbent upon we who are responsible for them to make choices for them that are in their best interest whether or not that is easy, comfortable, or convenient for us. For the pro lifer, that is just as true for the one too young to be outside the womb.

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It is a human, but it is not a 'person.'

And I think it's great to consider it whatever you want if it is your kid and you and your family and friends are happily anticipating a baby.

For those of you to whom that is 'pertinent,' you are free to act on that and have and treasure that baby.

Peter Grimm said:

Here's how I would address that. How do you feel about people who throw away food? Same exact thing. You have people starving all over the world, and people throw food away like it's trash. Same thing with money. You have people living hand to mouth, you have people going bankrupt because their kid is sick, and on the other hand you have people who are so rich they buy gold plated toilet seats.

All these things to me speak to a lack of human dignity.

I don't think abortion is murder, but it fits in to the narrative I'm talking about, I don't like our throwaway culture and I would like to see a greater respect for life and human dignity.

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There is no shortage of humans and despite abortion being legal for 40 yrs....more women still decide to GIVE birth and there are plenty of people....dont need that drama.

To me, to put up roadblocks that *can be avoided* in front of women who deserve to fulfill their own potentials in life...that is a great waste. These women are already born and part of society...how wasteful is it to insist they take a path that may damage that? It should be their decision alone. You basically tell them they are not as important as a fetus...an unknown that may miscarry or have defects. Is that how you make important decisions in your own life? Risking the known for the unknown?

Just to *believe* that strangers or the govt should have the right to demand a woman not have a choice shows a great lack of respect for women. A society of strong women CAPABLE of being good mothers speaks to great human dignity. They wont become that if they have unwanted roadblocks in their lives.

Muhammed said:

Could you elaborate on that seemingly diametric contradiction?

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Yes, it is a contradiction, and I realize that. The reason that I can be pro-life personally, and pro-choice in my voting, is because I don't expect other people to live up to my own ethical standards, and because when a woman (other than myself) is pregnant, I had nothing to do with that pregnancy or her body. She is responsible for how she conducts herself, and not me. I am responsible for myself, and for those which I had a hand in creating. I think that a fetus is a person. If another woman does not have the instinct to imagine what the life she is carrying will become, then I actually feel pity for her and for that unborn baby, but that action which I consider the taking of a life, does not leave blood on my hands. In the abortion issue, and when it comes to individual rights, a choice must be made between the mother and the baby, as to who has preference. The mother is already here- she is the one who made the choices leading to that pregnancy, thus she is the one responsible for the course of action in dealing with her own situation.

lizzie said:

Yes, it is a contradiction, and I realize that. The reason that I can be pro-life personally, and pro-choice in my voting, is because I don't expect other people to live up to my own ethical standards, and because when a woman (other than myself) is pregnant, I had nothing to do with that pregnancy or her body. She is responsible for how she conducts herself, and not me. I am responsible for myself, and for those which I had a hand in creating. I think that a fetus is a person. If another woman does not have the instinct to imagine what the life she is carrying will become, then I actually feel pity for her and for that unborn baby, but that action which I consider the taking of a life, does not leave blood on my hands. In the abortion issue, and when it comes to individual rights, a choice must be made between the mother and the baby, as to who has preference. The mother is already here- she is the one who made the choices leading to that pregnancy, thus she is the one responsible for the course of action in dealing with her own situation.

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I've always considered myself somewhere in the middle with a belief in similar responsibility. I don't believe in abortion personally though if it's not my wife and her pregnancy it's not our business completely. I do believe that once the fetus has reached a certain level of development that abortion shouldn't be allowed.

Lursa said:

It is a human, but it is not a 'person.'

And I think it's great to consider it whatever you want if it is your kid and you and your family and friends are happily anticipating a baby.

For those of you to whom that is 'pertinent,' you are free to act on that and have and treasure that baby.

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It is not a person? When does it become a person? What point in the life of that human is less important than any other part? The conception when the sperm fertilizes the egg? The zygote? The embryo? The fetus? Two weeks before the assigned birth date? The newborn infant drawing its first breath outside the womb? Which stage can we eliminate and still produce a person?

Everything any of us are or will ever be as a person is already present in that fertilized egg. Nothing will be added to or subtracted from the potential in that DNA. It is the beginning of a human being, a person, no less important than any other stage in order for that person to be who he/she is.

And in my opinion, that should be the attitude of us all. There indeed are valid, moral, ethical reasons that a pregnancy should be terminated. But each time, we should always be conscious that it is the life of a person that we are ending.

grip said:

I've always considered myself somewhere in the middle with a belief in similar responsibility. I don't believe in abortion personally though if it's not my wife and her pregnancy it's not our business completely. I do believe that once the fetus has reached a certain level of development that abortion shouldn't be allowed.

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Same here. If there's a reasonable chance of viability outside the womb, I don't support the choice to abort at all.

lizzie said:

Same here. If there's a reasonable chance of viability outside the womb, I don't support the choice to abort at all.

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But even here, and I'm pretty sure you and Grip would concur, that there can be a valid reason to end a pregnancy. If it is the life of the mother at stake and the only way to save her is to abort that baby--such instances are rare--but it could be the best choice. Most especially when there are other children at stake who need their mother.

However pro life any of us may be, we cannot refuse the blessings of medical science that can now save those who routinely died in child birth. There are ethical, moral, valid reasons to take the life of that baby. But I long to return to a society that would do that only out of extreme necessity and never for convenience. That should be the cultural norm and not one forced upon us by activism or legal action.

Lursa said:

It's rhetoric...emotional and inflammatory. If you need that to make an argument, you have a weak argument and it indicates an emotional rather than rational view of the issue.

Interestingly, you use many such emotional and inflammatory words...further weakening your argument and showing that you really cannot think clearly on the issue...unable to separate facts from personally investing emotions in other peoples' fetuses that as far as you know...dont even exist...and due to the vagaries of biology and gestation, may never even be born.

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You abortionists use words like the war on women and other nonsense.So you have no room to accuse others of using emotional and inflammatory language.You support legalizes on demand abortion, You should own up to it instead of trying to hide behind labels that disassociate what you stand for.You support legalized on demand abortion.If you do not find abortion to be inhumane and vile then you should have no problem calling yourself pro-abortion or an abortionist.

lizzie said:

Same here. If there's a reasonable chance of viability outside the womb, I don't support the choice to abort at all.

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Now I might be inclined to be even more protective towards viable life if our species were facing population problems or extinction. But as it is we're facing the opposite with over population and lack of resources. Octomoms, fertility drugs - techniques and families having too many children to afford are all putting more pressure on society. It's simply not the world it was a 100 years ago where a lot of children could help the family provide.