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Are you pro life or pro choice?

Are you pro life or pro choice?


  • Total voters
    87
A child could be born with mental issues, that still doesn't make that child less valuable than an able-bodied child.

Hope I didn't miss your point.

The gift is the ability to have a child. Many couples are unable.

Wow.

You completely ignored everything I wrote. The ONLY value in ANY gift is what it means to the person receiving it. If they dont want it....it's not a gift and has no value. What someone else considers a gift might even be offensive or harmful. Like giving a 5 yr old a gun for a birthday gift.

It will be difficult to put this in words of one syllable but it is probably possible. Is that what you require?
 
Adoption. Simple.

Again: do you need words of one syllable?

If she misses finishing high school or doesnt get into college because of poor grades, or fails of either due to pregnancy...sickness, sick days, etc....adoption is a little late. Same with the impact on her job or career....it can be very damaging. Missing opportunities early in life can delay or damage her life irreparably.

Women who CHOOSE pregnancy usually have a partner to share the burden of pregnancy and a financial safety net and have been able to finish an education or prepare to take time off work or make allowances there.

And of course if she dies or has lifelong health complications....adoption's also a little late @_@
 
1.) nope, im giving you the facts and reality
2.) you are mistaken see #1
3.) at times society rights do take rank, never needs though as that is subjective. Maybe another country would suit you better if you rank subjective needs over rights and freedom

1.) You're giving me what you perceive to be the facts and reality. You're looking at it from an individual rights standpoint. You're saying that it's her right as a person to have an abortion and that has nothing to do with me, therefore I have no say. That's true only if individual rights are more important than the needs of the society. Which takes us to point #3...

3.) That's the way America works. If the needs/desires/beliefs of the society didn't trump the rights of the individual, we wouldn't ever have needed to have a civil rights movement, because everyone's individual rights would have been acknowledged right from the start.

It doesn't work that way, it never has worked that way, and it never will work that way.

Take taxes for example. A libertarian will say that my money and property belongs to me, nobody has the right to take it from me or tell me how to spend it. However, the needs of the society take precedent. That's why we have income tax. That's why we have welfare programs. That's why we have the ACA. We make people buy insurance, we make people pay taxes, all that because the needs of the many are what counts.
 
Again: do you need words of one syllable?

If she misses finishing high school or doesnt get into college because of poor grades, or fails of either due to pregnancy...sickness, sick days, etc....adoption is a little late. Same with the impact on her job or career....it can be very damaging. Missing opportunities early in life can delay or damage her life irreparably.

Women who CHOOSE pregnancy usually have a partner to share the burden of pregnancy and a financial safety net and have been able to finish an education or prepare to take time off work or make allowances there.

And of course if she dies or has lifelong health complications....adoption's also a little late @_@

Why would she miss high school because of pregnancy? Pregnancy doesn't work like that. If she's giving it up for adoption, she might need a couple weeks off... tops.

I'm sure she could make up the work. If not, I'd be in favor of making it mandatory for schools to allow her to do so, legally.
 
1.) You're giving me what you perceive to be the facts and reality. You're looking at it from an individual rights standpoint.
2.)You're saying that it's her right as a person to have an abortion and that has nothing to do with me, therefore I have no say. That's true only if individual rights are more important than the needs of the society. Which takes us to point #3...

3.) That's the way America works. If the needs/desires/beliefs of the society didn't trump the rights of the individual, we wouldn't ever have needed to have a civil rights movement, because everyone's individual rights would have been acknowledged right from the start.

4.)It doesn't work that way, it never has worked that way, and it never will work that way.

5.)Take taxes for example. A libertarian will say that my money and property belongs to me, nobody has the right to take it from me or tell me how to spend it. However, the needs of the society take precedent. That's why we have income tax. That's why we have welfare programs. That's why we have the ACA. We make people buy insurance, we make people pay taxes, all that because the needs of the many are what counts.

1.) nope i gave you what facts and reality are in this country
2.) this is where your mistake is, "im" not saying anything laws, rights, court cases and facts say it
3.) since your false assumption in two failed 3 is only a continuance of your mistake
4.) good thing i never made your strawman claim then
5.) this is about abortion, thanks.
so far nothing as changed, my post stands
 
1.) nope i gave you what facts and reality are in this country
2.) this is where your mistake is, "im" not saying anything laws, rights, court cases and facts say it
3.) since your false assumption in two failed 3 is only a continuance of your mistake
4.) good thing i never made your strawman claim then
5.) this is about abortion, thanks.
so far nothing as changed, my post stands

Your post stands as your opinion. I already said you're entitled to your opinion.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

The only thing is, I don't think you are following what I'm telling you about libertarianism vs looking out for the good of society and how that frames the bigger argument. Oh well.
 
Why would she miss high school because of pregnancy? Pregnancy doesn't work like that. If she's giving it up for adoption, she might need a couple weeks off... tops.

I'm sure she could make up the work. If not, I'd be in favor of making it mandatory for schools to allow her to do so, legally.

What are you basing that on? Girls drop out of school all the time because of pregnancy...pregnancy for many women makes them very sick...esp at the beginning. It's called failing out. It's called too many sick days and having to repeat a yr. It's called your parents kick you out and you have to go live with relatives and start all over again. OR it's called living on the street or a halfway house and not being able to attend at all.

As for jobs...many entry level and unskilled labor jobs will cut you loose or cut your pay. You only have so much sick time. Pregnancy is exhausting. And if you have a profession or career, it can immediately bump you off the advancement track...due to sickness or just plain old anticipation that now 'mommy' will put baby before career.

Yours was one of the most uninformed posts I've ever read. You didnt put a second of thought into it...(I'd hate to think you attempted to).
 
1.)Your post stands as your opinion. I already said you're entitled to your opinion.

2.)You have your opinion, I have mine.

3.)The only thing is, I don't think you are following what I'm telling you about libertarianism vs looking out for the good of society and how that frames the bigger argument. Oh well.

1.) nope its the way laws, rights, court cases, court precedence and facts are. Sorry facts prove you wrong.
2.) havent given you mine but you have given me yours which is meaningless because of #1
3.) of i follow your opinion but it doesnt mater :shrug:
facts > your opinion
 
What are you basing that on? Girls drop out of school all the time because of pregnancy...pregnancy for many women makes them very sick...esp at the beginning. It's called failing out. It's called too many sick days and having to repeat a yr. It's called your parents kick you out and you have to go live with relatives and start all over again. OR it's called living on the street or a halfway house and not being able to attend at all.

As for jobs...many entry level and unskilled labor jobs will cut you loose or cut your pay. You only have so much sick time. Pregnancy is exhausting. And if you have a profession or career, it can immediately bump you off the advancement track...due to sickness or just plain old anticipation that now 'mommy' will put baby before career.

Yours was one of the most uninformed posts I've ever read. You didnt put a second of thought into it...(I'd hate to think you attempted to).

Cool it with the personal attacks. My sister just had a baby, I hung out with her every week as she lives in the same city, I'm pretty tuned in to the process. She was going to work all the way up until she went in to labor, just about. She's taking time off work now but that's because she kept her baby. If she had given it up, she could be back working now.

I don't see any reason someone would have to fail out of school because they were bringing a child to term.
 
OK, not a bad answer but two things.

First, you're a libertarian when it comes to the human body, but not when it comes to personal property. Acknowledged. HOWEVER.... note that not everybody shares that view. Plenty of people are libertarian when it comes to body AND property, while others are not libertarian in either case (myself).

In actual fact, (second point) it's not legal to sell your kidney on ebay in the USA and it has little to do with trade regulations. It's the same reason it's not legal for me to go ask a doctor to end my life if I'm feeling depressed. It's the same reason it's not legal for me to have a doctor cut off my healthy leg just for fun.

We as a society in the US are not libertarian when it comes to the body. If you are, just understand that not everyone thinks the same way.

I noticed that you are Dutch - I believe things like euthanasia are legal in the Netherlands, so that libertarian attitude is more prevalent over there than in the United States.

But I am not a libertarian. I am progressive/social democrat and what happens to someones property, as long as it is done in accordance with the law of the land and protected by an independent and fair judiciary, can be legal even if it is not fair. But your property is not the same thing as your body IMHO, you have a much higher right of ownership over your body than over the things your possess.

That doctors are not allowed to do harm (and removing a kidney can be seen as doing your body harm) and that is a legal and ethical requirement. By removing an egg, zygote, embryo or even early stage fetus, you are not harming your body IMHO. As for removing your leg, if it is done for psychological reasons, then I think removing your healthy leg can be allowed. I have seen documentaries about people with body dismorphia who have real mental suffering and anguish because they are mentally convinced that (for example) they are supposed to be without a left lower leg/foot. These people at times risk their lives to disfigure their bodies in such a way that it conforms with their ideal picture. But these cases are rare and should only be done after long and intensive mental treatment to try and "heal" their condition. But if that is impossible, and the only way to stop them from risking their lives is by amputating a foot or leg, than maybe that should be possible.

Legal is a big word when it comes to euthanasia. If you follow the rules and regulations to the letter, you will not be prosecuted. Break those guidelines and you are open to prosecution.

The same with cannabis, people act like in the Netherlands you are allowed to smoke to your hearts content. That is not the case, if you smoke cannabis in a coffee shop you will not be prosecuted. Take your legally bought cannabis/pot home with you and you are stopped by the police, you will be relieved of that cannabis by the police because it is not legal to be in possession of said cannabis outside the coffee shop. Carrying anything up to 5 grams will not be prosecuted but as it is still illegal, your drugs will be impounded and destroyed.

The odds of you being nicked with 3 grams of pot on you are slim but if you drive impaired or do something else that puts you on the radar of the police, you will be searched and upon finding cannabis this will still be impounded because even though it is decriminalized, it remains illegal to own cannabis. Anything above the 5 grams will most likely get you prosecuted though. We do not want to be an interfering nanny state but not prosecuting possession of cannabis/pot is not the same as it being legal.

I think the Netherlands is the perfect mix (if you want to call it that) of libertarians, liberals, progressives and social democrats/socialists when it comes to social issues like drugs possession, euthanasia and abortion. But also when it comes to, for example support of religious education. In the Netherlands religious education has the same right to public funding as non-religious education.

I am an atheist so my parents let me go to a public school from ages 6 to 12. Then, because we lived in a very Christian region of my country, my parents were not able to find a public secondary school for me but there were a lot of choices still left. I went to a progressive protestant school next where I had to go to religious studies (mandatory) but mostly it was more civil classes with religion mixed into it. Next I went to a catholic higher education but there I was allowed to skip religious studies because there it was not mandatory. But all of these schools, the religious and public ones still had the same public funding because they all had to comply with the countrywide study targets and methods. Every kid had to do the state run exams in the end and the books schools had to use also had to be to certain mandatory standards and content.

What I am really saying is that we are a weird and somewhat messed up country. The country is mainly steeped in Calvinism, with large blocks of Catholicism and large blocks of the country where social democracy reigns supreme. We have always been a country of compromise due to our diverse make up and political reality. To be honest, we are a bit nuts and that is what works here in the Netherlands but is not easily copied to other countries (nor should it be).

We like that people who are dying a horrific death have the freedom to choose to end their own lives (as long as the rules are followed) but doctors still have the right to not want to participate in euthanasia. Every doctor has the freedom to choose whether or not they want to perform the medical procedure that is euthanasia.

But what is imperative here is that we would not let an animal suffer a horrendously painful death, than who are we to deny someone who is fully capable to make an informed decision, a humane end to their life if they should choose to.

My grandfather died through euthanasia when it was not regulated in the Netherlands. The doctors over-medicated him with morphine. He was in the final stages of lung cancer. A disease that was made worse with his miners lungs. He had worked most of his adult life in the dutch coal mines and his lungs were shot before he was 50. When he contracted lung cancer he quickly deteriorated and the strong willed and independent man that he had been all of his life was so weak that slime was pooling in his lungs and the nurses had to palpitate his chest so that he was not suffocating too badly from it. He was so weak that he was unable to cough anymore. His legs had diminished to where his upper legs were smaller in diameter than my wrist. He was barely able to sit let alone stand anymore and he was weakening daily. His greatest fear was that he was going to suffocate to death. In the end, on his own request, he was given a larger than normal dose of painkilling morphine. His body was unable to handle that larger dose and he died peacefully in his sleep. He died after having said his goodbye's and with what pride he had left in him. We were all sad to have lost him, but all of us were happy that his suffering had ended.

Now, like him, everybody in the country has the right to decide to die when they are dying and they feel it is time. Most will wait until the last moment and even more will never choose euthanasia. But if they wanted to, they had the choice to make that decision.
 
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1.) nope its the way laws, rights, court cases, court precedence and facts are. Sorry facts prove you wrong.
2.) havent given you mine but you have given me yours which is meaningless because of #1
3.) of i follow your opinion but it doesnt mater :shrug:
facts > your opinion

It's also a fact that we pay taxes. That means it's not all about individual rights, that it's sometimes about the collective benefit.

While abortion is legal on the federal level, it had to go all the way to the supreme court level to be decided, and it is still legally contested. Therefore it's not that cut and dry as you make it out to be.

But thanks, I'm perfectly aware of what the laws are and what they aren't. We're here to debate policy and what it ought to be.

If you really understand the gist of my argument, please summarize it for me.
 
Cool it with the personal attacks. My sister just had a baby, I hung out with her every week as she lives in the same city, I'm pretty tuned in to the process. She was going to work all the way up until she went in to labor, just about. She's taking time off work now but that's because she kept her baby. If she had given it up, she could be back working now.

I don't see any reason someone would have to fail out of school because they were bringing a child to term.

Really? My sister had hemorrhoids the size of grapes and couldnt sit at her desk at work. And yeah, she used up her sick time and was 'laid off.'

So your anecdotal claim is only that. My claims of how women are affected during pregnancy...and the affects on their lives...is pretty well documented.

(I have 3 sisters, and lots of cousins and friends and can give you TONS of support for how hard pregnancy & childbirth are. Or how about this one: my friend's wife, their 2nd kid, no medical issues or prior indications...died in childbirth, after hours of agony. The baby died shortly after. And it wasnt like on TV where they drift off peacefully from blood loss...she died screaming and vomiting in front of her horrified husband.) Completely unpredictable...and unpreventable.

But here's one solid source to back my claim up, (not that it will stop you from minimizing what women go thru):

CDC - About Teen Pregnancy - Teen Pregnancy - Reproductive Health


"In 2008, teen pregnancy and childbirth accounted for nearly $11 billion per year in costs to U.S. taxpayers for increased health care and foster care, increased incarceration rates among children of teen parents, and lost tax revenue because of lower educational attainment and income among teen mothers."

"Pregnancy and birth are significant contributors to high school drop out rates among girls. Only about 50% of teen mothers receive a high school diploma by 22 years of age, versus approximately 90% of women who had not given birth during adolescence."

"The children of teenage mothers are more likely to have lower school achievement and drop out of high school, have more health problems, be incarcerated at some time during adolescence, give birth as a teenager, and face unemployment as a young adult."
 
1.)It's also a fact that we pay taxes. That means it's not all about individual rights, that it's sometimes about the collective benefit.

2.) While abortion is legal on the federal level, it had to go all the way to the supreme court level to be decided, and it is still legally contested. Therefore it's not that cut and dry as you make it out to be.

3.)But thanks, I'm perfectly aware of what the laws are and what they aren't. We're here to debate policy and what it ought to be.

4.)If you really understand the gist of my argument, please summarize it for me.

1.) ok, meaningless to abortion
2.) you mean as you assume i make it out to be, again meaningless
3.) thread history proves otherwise
4.) you haven't presented one (argument)

i post some facts and you tried to say its not true and then went on to talk about your personal opinion lol

again facts remain and you are free to have your opinion
 
I can't believe you lefties have no sympathy for the infant defenseless baby in the womb. Its so sad.
 
I can't believe you lefties have no sympathy for the infant defenseless baby in the womb. Its so sad.

Who ever said that?

At least some of us only said that the needs of that fetus should not come before the rights of an American citizen, endowed on her by God as well, according to some. Therefore, she should have the right to choose what is best. She will answer to God someday (according to some) and when she does, God will take into consideration ALL the acts of her life, good and bad, and weigh them in His ultimate judgement. Only HE will know (along with the woman) if she made the RIGHT decision...based on how it affected the rest of her life, what she was able to contribute because she didnt have that child, what more she had to offer other children later, etc etc etc.
 
The problem is that making abortion illegal won't prevent abortions, it'll simply drive the practice back underground. Abortion was made legal to prevent the heartbreaking calamities that used to happen to desperate girls in back-alley 'clinics'. There were no rules about the term of pregnancy, no standards of practice or even cleanliness, no follow-up, no recourse, no hope.

Those procedures are greatly exaggerated Since abortion became legal many more are done in abortion clinics like planned parenthood.
 
I can't believe you lefties have no sympathy for the infant defenseless baby in the womb. Its so sad.

But it is not the killing of babies that happens with abortion. If babies are killed abortion doctors are prosecuted immediately. You cannot compare a baby to an embryo of 1 inch or less. You can live your whole life in the happy circumstance that you did not have an abortion but it is for every individual themselves to make such a choice early in the pregnancy, not yours or mine.

All you can do is provide good alternatives to abortion, enforce waiting time. provide affordable birth control and provide good sex education. The rest is up to the conscience of every person him or herself.

All of that is of course as long as they follow the law (with the number of weeks of pregnancy until which abortion is allowed).
 
Who ever said that?

At least some of us only said that the needs of that fetus should not come before the rights of an American citizen, endowed on her by God as well, according to some. Therefore, she should have the right to choose what is best. She will answer to God someday (according to some) and when she does, God will take into consideration ALL the acts of her life, good and bad, and weigh them in His ultimate judgement. Only HE will know (along with the woman) if she made the RIGHT decision...based on how it affected the rest of her life, what she was able to contribute because she didnt have that child, what more she had to offer other children later, etc etc etc.

And the baby in the womb has that same right. While are you afraid to call it a baby?
 
But I am not a libertarian. I am progressive/social democrat and what happens to someones property, as long as it is done in accordance with the law of the land and protected by an independent and fair judiciary, can be legal even if it is not fair. But your property is not the same thing as your body IMHO, you have a much higher right of ownership over your body than over the things your possess.

That doctors are not allowed to do harm (and removing a kidney can be seen as doing your body harm) and that is a legal and ethical requirement. By removing an egg, zygote, embryo or even early stage fetus, you are not harming your body IMHO. As for removing your leg, if it is done for psychological reasons, then I think removing your healthy leg can be allowed. I have seen documentaries about people with body dismorphia who have real mental suffering and anguish because they are mentally convinced that (for example) they are supposed to be without a left lower leg/foot. These people at times risk their lives to disfigure their bodies in such a way that it conforms with their ideal picture. But these cases are rare and should only be done after long and intensive mental treatment to try and "heal" their condition. But if that is impossible, and the only way to stop them from risking their lives is by amputating a foot or leg, than maybe that should be possible.

Legal is a big word when it comes to euthanasia. If you follow the rules and regulations to the letter, you will not be prosecuted. Break those guidelines and you are open to prosecution.

The same with cannabis, people act like in the Netherlands you are allowed to smoke to your hearts content. That is not the case, if you smoke cannabis in a coffee shop you will not be prosecuted. Take your legally bought cannabis/pot home with you and you are stopped by the police, you will be relieved of that cannabis by the police because it is not legal to be in possession of said cannabis outside the coffee shop. Carrying anything up to 5 grams will not be prosecuted but as it is still illegal, your drugs will be impounded and destroyed.

The odds of you being nicked with 3 grams of pot on you are slim but if you drive impaired or do something else that puts you on the radar of the police, you will be searched and upon finding cannabis this will still be impounded because even though it is decriminalized, it remains illegal to own cannabis. Anything above the 5 grams will most likely get you prosecuted though. We do not want to be an interfering nanny state but not prosecuting possession of cannabis/pot is not the same as it being legal.

I think the Netherlands is the perfect mix (if you want to call it that) of libertarians, liberals, progressives and social democrats/socialists when it comes to social issues like drugs possession, euthanasia and abortion. But also when it comes to, for example support of religious education. In the Netherlands religious education has the same right to public funding as non-religious education.

I am an atheist so my parents let me go to a public school from ages 6 to 12. Then, because we lived in a very Christian region of my country, my parents were not able to find a public secondary school for me but there were a lot of choices still left. I went to a progressive protestant school next where I had to go to religious studies (mandatory) but mostly it was more civil classes with religion mixed into it. Next I went to a catholic higher education but there I was allowed to skip religious studies because there it was not mandatory. But all of these schools, the religious and public ones still had the same public funding because they all had to comply with the countrywide study targets and methods. Every kid had to do the state run exams in the end and the books schools had to use also had to be to certain mandatory standards and content.

What I am really saying is that we are a weird and somewhat messed up country. The country is mainly steeped in Calvinism, with large blocks of Catholicism and large blocks of the country where social democracy reigns supreme. We have always been a country of compromise due to our diverse make up and political reality. To be honest, we are a bit nuts and that is what works here in the Netherlands but is not easily copied to other countries (nor should it be).

We like that people who are dying a horrific death have the freedom to choose to end their own lives (as long as the rules are followed) but doctors still have the right to not want to participate in euthanasia. Every doctor has the freedom to choose whether or not they want to perform the medical procedure that is euthanasia.

But what is imperative here is that we would not let an animal suffer a horrendously painful death, than who are we to deny someone who is fully capable to make an informed decision, a humane end to their life if they should choose to.

My grandfather died through euthanasia when it was not regulated in the Netherlands. The doctors over-medicated him with morphine. He was in the final stages of lung cancer. A disease that was made worse with his miners lungs. He had worked most of his adult life in the dutch coal mines and his lungs were shot before he was 50. When he contracted lung cancer he quickly deteriorated and the strong willed and independent man that he had been all of his life was so weak that slime was polling in his lungs and the nurses had to palpitate his chest so that he was not suffocating too badly from it. He was so weak that he was unable to cough anymore. His legs had diminished to where his upper legs were smaller in diameter than my wrist. He was barely able to sit let alone stand anymore and he was weakening daily. His greatest fear was that he was going to suffocate to death. In the end, on his own request, he was given a larger than normal dose of painkilling morphine. His body was unable to handle that larger dose and he died peacefully in his sleep. He died after having said his goodbye's and with what pride he had left in him. We were all sad to have lost him, but all of us were happy that his suffering had ended.

Now, like him, everybody in the country has the right to decide to die when they are dying and they feel it is time. Most will wait until the last moment and even more will never choose euthanasia. But if they wanted to, they had the choice to make that decision.


I understand what you're saying and it's a good point: one's ownership over his own body is greater than his ownership over his property, therefore the government has less right to regulate what you do with your body than it does to take your property.

I also appreciate the story about your grandfather, I'm sorry to hear that he passed away, but it is interesting to hear how euthanasia is perceived in a country where it is legal.

In America, we do legislate what you can and can't do with your own body, although, as you can see, it's a hotly contested point of debate. You have some Americans who draw the line at the same place you do, to say that you have complete ownership of your body but the government can pillage your possessions as they see fit. You have other Americans who see their possessions as an extension of themselves, and think the government have no more right to take their land or their home than they do to take their toe or your hand. Then you have people like me, who believe the greater good is what counts no matter what.

I think there are merits to all points of view. I arrived at mine after a lot of reading and traveling, but I am sure I will change my mind on things several more times before my time is up.
 
But it is not the killing of babies that happens with abortion. If babies are killed abortion doctors are prosecuted immediately. You cannot compare a baby to an embryo of 1 inch or less. You can live your whole life in the happy circumstance that you did not have an abortion but it is for every individual themselves to make such a choice early in the pregnancy, not yours or mine.

All you can do is provide good alternatives to abortion, enforce waiting time. provide affordable birth control and provide good sex education. The rest is up to the conscience of every person him or herself.

All of that is of course as long as they follow the law (with the number of weeks of pregnancy until which abortion is allowed).

New technology says your wrong my friend.
 
And the baby in the womb has that same right. While are you afraid to call it a baby?

Because it's not a baby and I explained why a fetus that has no known value...may be physically or mentally defective...or even be miscarried...should not have rights that supersede a woman already part of society, contributing, and having a 'known' value.

A fetus has no idea if you kill it. A woman knows and has to live with YOUR (desired) infringement on her rights. Unless she dies during pregnancy or childbirth of course.
 
1.) ok, meaningless to abortion
2.) you mean as you assume i make it out to be, again meaningless
3.) thread history proves otherwise
4.) you haven't presented one (argument)

i post some facts and you tried to say its not true and then went on to talk about your personal opinion lol

again facts remain and you are free to have your opinion

I don't believe you're following the argument I'm making, therefore I'm spinning my wheels debating with you. Respectfully, I'm gonna end our debate because it's one thing if you understand what I'm saying and simply disagree, it's another if I'm not even able to communicate my point of view to you so that you can refute it or agree with it.
 
And the baby in the womb has that same right. While are you afraid to call it a baby?

I notice that you completely ignored this (just like you completely ignored when I posted that the article you posted actually said that 70% of Americans polled SUPPORTED Roe vs. Wade):

At least some of us only said that the needs of that fetus should not come before the rights of an American citizen, endowed on her by God as well, according to some. Therefore, she should have the right to choose what is best. She will answer to God someday (according to some) and when she does, God will take into consideration ALL the acts of her life, good and bad, and weigh them in His ultimate judgement. Only HE will know (along with the woman) if she made the RIGHT decision...based on how it affected the rest of her life, what she was able to contribute because she didnt have that child, what more she had to offer other children later, etc etc etc.
 
Really? My sister had hemorrhoids the size of grapes and couldnt sit at her desk at work. And yeah, she used up her sick time and was 'laid off.'

So your anecdotal claim is only that. My claims of how women are affected during pregnancy...and the affects on their lives...is pretty well documented.

(I have 3 sisters, and lots of cousins and friends and can give you TONS of support for how hard pregnancy & childbirth are. Or how about this one: my friend's wife, their 2nd kid, no medical issues or prior indications...died in childbirth, after hours of agony. The baby died shortly after. And it wasnt like on TV where they drift off peacefully from blood loss...she died screaming and vomiting in front of her horrified husband.) Completely unpredictable...and unpreventable.

But here's one solid source to back my claim up, (not that it will stop you from minimizing what women go thru):

CDC - About Teen Pregnancy - Teen Pregnancy - Reproductive Health


"In 2008, teen pregnancy and childbirth accounted for nearly $11 billion per year in costs to U.S. taxpayers for increased health care and foster care, increased incarceration rates among children of teen parents, and lost tax revenue because of lower educational attainment and income among teen mothers."

"Pregnancy and birth are significant contributors to high school drop out rates among girls. Only about 50% of teen mothers receive a high school diploma by 22 years of age, versus approximately 90% of women who had not given birth during adolescence."

"The children of teenage mothers are more likely to have lower school achievement and drop out of high school, have more health problems, be incarcerated at some time during adolescence, give birth as a teenager, and face unemployment as a young adult."

Alright say I grant you that it will screw up her whole year of school because of medical/mental/whatever issues. Just do the grade over again next year and be a year behind. It won't kill her to graduate one year older.
 
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