View Poll Results: Are you pro life or pro choice?

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  • Pro Life

    34 33.01%
  • Pro choice

    69 66.99%
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Thread: Are you pro life or pro choice?

  1. #281
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    Wow... in one single post you've managed to completely display a level of ignorance, arrogance, and confusion so deep the Marianas Trench looks like a suburban rain gutter.
    Your personal insults directed at me will not dissuade me. They don't change the facts or real-time situations.

    If I have said anything that disturbs your brilliant mind, then make it be known.

    (edited)
    Last edited by Muhammed; 01-24-14 at 01:42 PM.

  2. #282
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJR View Post
    You clearly are well read on this. I do appreciate facts (I'm a self professed lover of logic).
    Maybe you have some of that info handy....I do know of one place in MA, in a city called Methuen. They are known for twenty week and up procedures...if you have that list on hand, double check it to see if that clinic falls under those four. It's a VERY small clinic.
    There are only 4 doctors who perform legal late term abortions at or past 24 weeks gestation ( limit of viability ) for the extreme cases that I listed.


    There are more than 4 doctors ( I do not know the count ) who are specially trained to give legal abortions between 20 and 24 weeks gestation.

    OB/GYNs perform ultrasounds on pregnant women between 18 to 20 weeks gestation to determine any fetal or genetic abnormalities. In the USA most states do not allow abortions in cases of fetal abnormalities.

    The only cases excepted are when fetal abnormalities are incompatible with life for the fetus ( the fetus will be stillborn or will only live a few minutes or hours )
    The reason is because if the fetus dies within the womb and is not removed in a timely manner it has a high chance of becoming infected and puts the woman's life at risk.

    So most abortions that occur between 20 to 24 weeks gestation are because of genetic or fetal abnormalities some of which are non viable ( fetus will be still born or will only live a few minutes or hours ) and some which might be viable but who might suffer much pain or need multiple surgeries etc.


    As I said doctors who legally perform abortions after 20 weeks need special training because it is a law in the US that doctors need to give a fetus at or after 20 weeks gestation a lethal injection before the abortion procedure starts.

    Once the injection is given the bones start to soften which also helps to prevent damage to woman's cervix during the abortion procedure.

    Edited to add:

    The 4 doctors who preform legal abortions after 24 weeks gestation in the extreme cases I mentioned do sometimes travel from state to state to help patients who have these extreme problem pregnancies.

    The clinic you mentioned however does not perform legal abortions after 24 weeks gestation.
    Last edited by minnie616; 01-24-14 at 02:18 PM.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

  3. #283
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    These two posts highlight the issue with the "pro-life" or "pro-choice" poll and what it could mean. Both of you are in favor of some level of lawful abortions, which per Jamesrage's definition makes you both pro-choice. Yet I'm sure you'd both self identify as "pro-life" in such a poll.
    yes, I just don't like the idea of it being used as birth control

  4. #284
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Tell me oh wise one, is birth control 100% effective?
    was for us

  5. #285
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The poll question is flawed, and as usual people don't understand the proper way to ask these questions.

    The two categories are:
    Pro-life vs. Pro-abortion
    Pro-choice vs. Anti-choice

    You can be pro-life (for yourself) yet pro-choice for others. You can also be pro-life and anti-choice.

    Likewise, you can be pro-abortion (for yourself, i.e. if I ever get pregnant I'm having an abortion), yet pro-choice or anti-choice for others.

    I am pro-life and pro-choice.
    I am pro life 100% but fully understand how abortion is sometimes necessary as well as being the moral and ethical choice. I would never vote for abortion to be outlawed. And because I don't know what is in the heart of or the situation of any woman, I will not presume to judge the choices others make. I agree that the poll options do not allow for the various shades of gray that exist within the issue.

    But yes, I want to return to a culture of life in which it is not almost automatic that the unwanted child will be killed.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #286
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) awesome
    2.) also awesome
    3.) again awesome no problem there i agree
    4.) well this is just opinion and one you are free to have but we'll get back to that later

    so my question is, do you want RvW changed?

    right now has the law stance abortion is legal for any reason up to 24 weeks
    this is 3 weeks after earliest possible viability
    and at the point of 50%viability meaning a baby born here has a 50% chance or living or dying

    abortions after this point are very rare, 1.3% happen after 21 weeks
    and the vast majority fit in to your criteria, they are usually don't to spare the mothers live or spare the child in some fashion.

    So now there are TWO lives being discussed.

    What would you like to happen with Roe vs Wade.

    do you want it totally thrown out and all abortions banned unless there IMMEDIATE risk to the mothers life (because the fact is all pregnancies are a risk) and or spare the child in some fashion

    abortions are ok in case of rape/incest

    you want RvW to remain but be tighter, dropped to 20-21 weeks because thats earliest possible viability

    you want the ceiling set even lower
    Thrown out, but that doesn't mean abortions themselves are never to be had in the field of health. Like I said, when the mother's life is truly threatened, a proper medical decision can be made that may or may not involve abortion.
    “Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves."

    -Abraham Lincoln

  7. #287
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhammed View Post
    Nobody is anti-choice.

    People calling themselves "pro-choice" is the height of arrogance and intellectual dishonesty. They really don't want the child to have any choice whatsoever.
    This is just another common irrationality found in pro-lifers....and just written out by 2 people in the last 2 pages: that a fetus could "make a choice."

    @_@

    And this is a point you attempt to use to change (rational) people's minds??
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  8. #288
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post

    Not everyone is as fortunate to be healthy enough to school or work during their pregnancy.
    .......................


    A couple of months after DH and I were married ( over 40 years ago) I thought I had the stomach flu as my stomach was upset and I was vomiting but after a few days I realized I might be pregnant. When I went to doctor and found out that indeed I was "expecting" DH and I were so excited. We had planned to start our family as soon as possible . The doctor wrote a script for the morning sickness and I thought all would be OK.

    Only it wasn't Ok. It turns out I had Hyperemesis gravidarum which is an extreme type of morning sickness.

    I had to quit my part time job. I had to drop my college classes .
    My DH was so good to me and so supportive. He took over the cleaning , laundry,cooking his own meals , as well as working to support us.

    I had a very hard time keeping any food down. I could barley even keep a sip of water down. My throat got scarred from constant vomiting. I threw up from 3 to 8 times a day. Every time I would smell food cooking I would throw up. Sometimes I was just throwing up yellow colored stomach acid because I had no food in my stomach. I could only keep down small amounts of saltine crackers and dry cooked popcorn ( no oil)
    By the time I was 5 months I had lost more than 10 percent of my body weight because I was so sick.
    I was pretty much home bound as I was so weak. I got to the point where I could barely function.

    Just think of how you feel when you have the worst stomach flu of your life.

    Then think of feeling that way for several months!

    My OB/GYN did what he could for me but 40 years ago we did not have the meds or the knowledge about extreme morning sickness that is available today. I had IV's to help with my dehydration. I went in regularly for B-12 injections as I had become very anemic. DH and I had taken Lamaze Classes but when it came for my delivery I was so anemic my OB/GYN was so concerned I would hemmorage that he put me under when he delivered the baby. He had everything set up for a total blood transfusion and wanted me under in case he need to do a complete transfusion.

    I was very lucky to have my DH's love and support, both emotional and financial.

    I don't think I could have made it had it not been for him, his love, his patience, his support, my loving family members and friends who helped me endure the sickness, the worry, the stress.and the physical barriers I went through.
    -----------------------------

    Knowing what I went through I could never support a law or a Country that would not allow a woman to choose for herself ( with the possible input of her husband/lover and/or doctor) whether to continue a pregnancy or not.
    Thanks Minnie...I explained this to him several times, but perhaps your personal experience will get thru. He completely dismissed what I wrote...including links from the CDC and just came back with...so what? And then didnt understand how disrespectful of women that is. It's like, 'screw their futures, what's a little pain, what's it matter if you never finish college or get a great job that you love?'
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #289
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Alright, let's address them.

    "In 2008, teen pregnancy and childbirth accounted for nearly $11 billion per year in costs to U.S. taxpayers for increased health care and foster care, 1.) increased incarceration rates among children of teen parents, 2.) and lost tax revenue because of lower educational attainment and income among teen mothers." 1. There is no causal relationship between having a teen mother and ending up in jail 2. There is no way to statistically measure the lost tax revenue due to lower educational attainment because a.) we don't know future tax rates b.) having a baby does not preclude getting an education and therefore... the author pulled this 11 billion figure out of his ass.

    "Pregnancy and birth are significant contributors to high school drop out rates among girls. Only about 50% of teen mothers receive a high school diploma by 22 years of age, versus approximately 90% of women who had not given birth during adolescence." Misleading stat because a higher percentage of teen pregnancies occur in minority neighborhoods. Graduation rates in those neighborhoods are generally lower than the national average. Why that matters - teen pregnancy is caused by socioeconomic factors. Lower graduation rates are also caused by socioeconomic factors. Therefore, teen pregnancy does not lead directly to lower graduation, it merely correlates because both occur to a greater extent in the same poor minority neighborhoods

    "The children of teenage mothers are more likely to have lower school achievement and drop out of high school, have more health problems, be incarcerated at some time during adolescence, give birth as a teenager, and face unemployment as a young adult." Again you have a case where correlation doesn't imply causation. I would argue that socioeconomic factors are more in play.

    So you can throw statistics at me but I've shown you how they can be fudged, and you won't convince me that it's not possible to succeed professionally while raising a family at a young age.
    Nothing was fudged, you just dont like them and every single one goes to support my ONLY claim...that pregnancy and unplanned children can HOLD women back in their futures, either thru limiting their educations or job prospects. And those are all tied to health, medical complications, sick time....and all those things of course add up to socio-economic factors.

    There were zero holes in that link or those quotes. They ALL demonstrate how pregnancy or kids that someone is not prepared for IMPACT their futures negatively.

    And that was the only claim I made...and you continue to dismiss it, like, 'meh, who cares, she can make up some other way.' No...opportunities are sometimes lost forever. Youth cannot be reclaimed. THere are many great things about motherhood but not if you are not ready or are poor or a jobless teen. It's up to the individual to decide what is best for HER.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  10. #290
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    This is just another common irrationality found in pro-lifers....and just written out by 2 people in the last 2 pages: that a fetus could "make a choice."

    @_@

    And this is a point you attempt to use to change (rational) people's minds??
    But for those of us who know that is a human life, it is pertinent is it not? The infant, the small child, even older children are not able or not always competent to make the proper choices re their welfare either, and it is incumbent upon we who are responsible for them to make choices for them that are in their best interest whether or not that is easy, comfortable, or convenient for us. For the pro lifer, that is just as true for the one too young to be outside the womb.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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