View Poll Results: Are you pro life or pro choice?

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  • Pro Life

    34 33.01%
  • Pro choice

    69 66.99%
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Thread: Are you pro life or pro choice?

  1. #211
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) nope its the way laws, rights, court cases, court precedence and facts are. Sorry facts prove you wrong.
    2.) havent given you mine but you have given me yours which is meaningless because of #1
    3.) of i follow your opinion but it doesnt mater
    facts > your opinion
    It's also a fact that we pay taxes. That means it's not all about individual rights, that it's sometimes about the collective benefit.

    While abortion is legal on the federal level, it had to go all the way to the supreme court level to be decided, and it is still legally contested. Therefore it's not that cut and dry as you make it out to be.

    But thanks, I'm perfectly aware of what the laws are and what they aren't. We're here to debate policy and what it ought to be.

    If you really understand the gist of my argument, please summarize it for me.

  2. #212
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Cool it with the personal attacks. My sister just had a baby, I hung out with her every week as she lives in the same city, I'm pretty tuned in to the process. She was going to work all the way up until she went in to labor, just about. She's taking time off work now but that's because she kept her baby. If she had given it up, she could be back working now.

    I don't see any reason someone would have to fail out of school because they were bringing a child to term.
    Really? My sister had hemorrhoids the size of grapes and couldnt sit at her desk at work. And yeah, she used up her sick time and was 'laid off.'

    So your anecdotal claim is only that. My claims of how women are affected during pregnancy...and the affects on their lives...is pretty well documented.

    (I have 3 sisters, and lots of cousins and friends and can give you TONS of support for how hard pregnancy & childbirth are. Or how about this one: my friend's wife, their 2nd kid, no medical issues or prior indications...died in childbirth, after hours of agony. The baby died shortly after. And it wasnt like on TV where they drift off peacefully from blood loss...she died screaming and vomiting in front of her horrified husband.) Completely unpredictable...and unpreventable.

    But here's one solid source to back my claim up, (not that it will stop you from minimizing what women go thru):

    CDC - About Teen Pregnancy - Teen Pregnancy - Reproductive Health


    "In 2008, teen pregnancy and childbirth accounted for nearly $11 billion per year in costs to U.S. taxpayers for increased health care and foster care, increased incarceration rates among children of teen parents, and lost tax revenue because of lower educational attainment and income among teen mothers."

    "Pregnancy and birth are significant contributors to high school drop out rates among girls. Only about 50% of teen mothers receive a high school diploma by 22 years of age, versus approximately 90% of women who had not given birth during adolescence."

    "The children of teenage mothers are more likely to have lower school achievement and drop out of high school, have more health problems, be incarcerated at some time during adolescence, give birth as a teenager, and face unemployment as a young adult."
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  3. #213
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    1.)It's also a fact that we pay taxes. That means it's not all about individual rights, that it's sometimes about the collective benefit.

    2.) While abortion is legal on the federal level, it had to go all the way to the supreme court level to be decided, and it is still legally contested. Therefore it's not that cut and dry as you make it out to be.

    3.)But thanks, I'm perfectly aware of what the laws are and what they aren't. We're here to debate policy and what it ought to be.

    4.)If you really understand the gist of my argument, please summarize it for me.
    1.) ok, meaningless to abortion
    2.) you mean as you assume i make it out to be, again meaningless
    3.) thread history proves otherwise
    4.) you haven't presented one (argument)

    i post some facts and you tried to say its not true and then went on to talk about your personal opinion lol

    again facts remain and you are free to have your opinion
    This space is currently owned by The Great Winchester, stay tuned for future messages!
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  4. #214
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    I can't believe you lefties have no sympathy for the infant defenseless baby in the womb. Its so sad.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    I can't believe you lefties have no sympathy for the infant defenseless baby in the womb. Its so sad.
    Who ever said that?

    At least some of us only said that the needs of that fetus should not come before the rights of an American citizen, endowed on her by God as well, according to some. Therefore, she should have the right to choose what is best. She will answer to God someday (according to some) and when she does, God will take into consideration ALL the acts of her life, good and bad, and weigh them in His ultimate judgement. Only HE will know (along with the woman) if she made the RIGHT decision...based on how it affected the rest of her life, what she was able to contribute because she didnt have that child, what more she had to offer other children later, etc etc etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #216
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    The problem is that making abortion illegal won't prevent abortions, it'll simply drive the practice back underground. Abortion was made legal to prevent the heartbreaking calamities that used to happen to desperate girls in back-alley 'clinics'. There were no rules about the term of pregnancy, no standards of practice or even cleanliness, no follow-up, no recourse, no hope.
    Those procedures are greatly exaggerated Since abortion became legal many more are done in abortion clinics like planned parenthood.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

  7. #217
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    I can't believe you lefties have no sympathy for the infant defenseless baby in the womb. Its so sad.
    But it is not the killing of babies that happens with abortion. If babies are killed abortion doctors are prosecuted immediately. You cannot compare a baby to an embryo of 1 inch or less. You can live your whole life in the happy circumstance that you did not have an abortion but it is for every individual themselves to make such a choice early in the pregnancy, not yours or mine.

    All you can do is provide good alternatives to abortion, enforce waiting time. provide affordable birth control and provide good sex education. The rest is up to the conscience of every person him or herself.

    All of that is of course as long as they follow the law (with the number of weeks of pregnancy until which abortion is allowed).
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

  8. #218
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Who ever said that?

    At least some of us only said that the needs of that fetus should not come before the rights of an American citizen, endowed on her by God as well, according to some. Therefore, she should have the right to choose what is best. She will answer to God someday (according to some) and when she does, God will take into consideration ALL the acts of her life, good and bad, and weigh them in His ultimate judgement. Only HE will know (along with the woman) if she made the RIGHT decision...based on how it affected the rest of her life, what she was able to contribute because she didnt have that child, what more she had to offer other children later, etc etc etc.
    And the baby in the womb has that same right. While are you afraid to call it a baby?
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

  9. #219
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    But I am not a libertarian. I am progressive/social democrat and what happens to someones property, as long as it is done in accordance with the law of the land and protected by an independent and fair judiciary, can be legal even if it is not fair. But your property is not the same thing as your body IMHO, you have a much higher right of ownership over your body than over the things your possess.

    That doctors are not allowed to do harm (and removing a kidney can be seen as doing your body harm) and that is a legal and ethical requirement. By removing an egg, zygote, embryo or even early stage fetus, you are not harming your body IMHO. As for removing your leg, if it is done for psychological reasons, then I think removing your healthy leg can be allowed. I have seen documentaries about people with body dismorphia who have real mental suffering and anguish because they are mentally convinced that (for example) they are supposed to be without a left lower leg/foot. These people at times risk their lives to disfigure their bodies in such a way that it conforms with their ideal picture. But these cases are rare and should only be done after long and intensive mental treatment to try and "heal" their condition. But if that is impossible, and the only way to stop them from risking their lives is by amputating a foot or leg, than maybe that should be possible.

    Legal is a big word when it comes to euthanasia. If you follow the rules and regulations to the letter, you will not be prosecuted. Break those guidelines and you are open to prosecution.

    The same with cannabis, people act like in the Netherlands you are allowed to smoke to your hearts content. That is not the case, if you smoke cannabis in a coffee shop you will not be prosecuted. Take your legally bought cannabis/pot home with you and you are stopped by the police, you will be relieved of that cannabis by the police because it is not legal to be in possession of said cannabis outside the coffee shop. Carrying anything up to 5 grams will not be prosecuted but as it is still illegal, your drugs will be impounded and destroyed.

    The odds of you being nicked with 3 grams of pot on you are slim but if you drive impaired or do something else that puts you on the radar of the police, you will be searched and upon finding cannabis this will still be impounded because even though it is decriminalized, it remains illegal to own cannabis. Anything above the 5 grams will most likely get you prosecuted though. We do not want to be an interfering nanny state but not prosecuting possession of cannabis/pot is not the same as it being legal.

    I think the Netherlands is the perfect mix (if you want to call it that) of libertarians, liberals, progressives and social democrats/socialists when it comes to social issues like drugs possession, euthanasia and abortion. But also when it comes to, for example support of religious education. In the Netherlands religious education has the same right to public funding as non-religious education.

    I am an atheist so my parents let me go to a public school from ages 6 to 12. Then, because we lived in a very Christian region of my country, my parents were not able to find a public secondary school for me but there were a lot of choices still left. I went to a progressive protestant school next where I had to go to religious studies (mandatory) but mostly it was more civil classes with religion mixed into it. Next I went to a catholic higher education but there I was allowed to skip religious studies because there it was not mandatory. But all of these schools, the religious and public ones still had the same public funding because they all had to comply with the countrywide study targets and methods. Every kid had to do the state run exams in the end and the books schools had to use also had to be to certain mandatory standards and content.

    What I am really saying is that we are a weird and somewhat messed up country. The country is mainly steeped in Calvinism, with large blocks of Catholicism and large blocks of the country where social democracy reigns supreme. We have always been a country of compromise due to our diverse make up and political reality. To be honest, we are a bit nuts and that is what works here in the Netherlands but is not easily copied to other countries (nor should it be).

    We like that people who are dying a horrific death have the freedom to choose to end their own lives (as long as the rules are followed) but doctors still have the right to not want to participate in euthanasia. Every doctor has the freedom to choose whether or not they want to perform the medical procedure that is euthanasia.

    But what is imperative here is that we would not let an animal suffer a horrendously painful death, than who are we to deny someone who is fully capable to make an informed decision, a humane end to their life if they should choose to.

    My grandfather died through euthanasia when it was not regulated in the Netherlands. The doctors over-medicated him with morphine. He was in the final stages of lung cancer. A disease that was made worse with his miners lungs. He had worked most of his adult life in the dutch coal mines and his lungs were shot before he was 50. When he contracted lung cancer he quickly deteriorated and the strong willed and independent man that he had been all of his life was so weak that slime was polling in his lungs and the nurses had to palpitate his chest so that he was not suffocating too badly from it. He was so weak that he was unable to cough anymore. His legs had diminished to where his upper legs were smaller in diameter than my wrist. He was barely able to sit let alone stand anymore and he was weakening daily. His greatest fear was that he was going to suffocate to death. In the end, on his own request, he was given a larger than normal dose of painkilling morphine. His body was unable to handle that larger dose and he died peacefully in his sleep. He died after having said his goodbye's and with what pride he had left in him. We were all sad to have lost him, but all of us were happy that his suffering had ended.

    Now, like him, everybody in the country has the right to decide to die when they are dying and they feel it is time. Most will wait until the last moment and even more will never choose euthanasia. But if they wanted to, they had the choice to make that decision.

    I understand what you're saying and it's a good point: one's ownership over his own body is greater than his ownership over his property, therefore the government has less right to regulate what you do with your body than it does to take your property.

    I also appreciate the story about your grandfather, I'm sorry to hear that he passed away, but it is interesting to hear how euthanasia is perceived in a country where it is legal.

    In America, we do legislate what you can and can't do with your own body, although, as you can see, it's a hotly contested point of debate. You have some Americans who draw the line at the same place you do, to say that you have complete ownership of your body but the government can pillage your possessions as they see fit. You have other Americans who see their possessions as an extension of themselves, and think the government have no more right to take their land or their home than they do to take their toe or your hand. Then you have people like me, who believe the greater good is what counts no matter what.

    I think there are merits to all points of view. I arrived at mine after a lot of reading and traveling, but I am sure I will change my mind on things several more times before my time is up.

  10. #220
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    But it is not the killing of babies that happens with abortion. If babies are killed abortion doctors are prosecuted immediately. You cannot compare a baby to an embryo of 1 inch or less. You can live your whole life in the happy circumstance that you did not have an abortion but it is for every individual themselves to make such a choice early in the pregnancy, not yours or mine.

    All you can do is provide good alternatives to abortion, enforce waiting time. provide affordable birth control and provide good sex education. The rest is up to the conscience of every person him or herself.

    All of that is of course as long as they follow the law (with the number of weeks of pregnancy until which abortion is allowed).
    New technology says your wrong my friend.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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