View Poll Results: Are you pro life or pro choice?

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  • Pro Life

    34 33.01%
  • Pro choice

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Thread: Are you pro life or pro choice?

  1. #201
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    A child could be born with mental issues, that still doesn't make that child less valuable than an able-bodied child.

    Hope I didn't miss your point.

    The gift is the ability to have a child. Many couples are unable.
    Wow.

    You completely ignored everything I wrote. The ONLY value in ANY gift is what it means to the person receiving it. If they dont want it....it's not a gift and has no value. What someone else considers a gift might even be offensive or harmful. Like giving a 5 yr old a gun for a birthday gift.

    It will be difficult to put this in words of one syllable but it is probably possible. Is that what you require?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #202
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Adoption. Simple.
    Again: do you need words of one syllable?

    If she misses finishing high school or doesnt get into college because of poor grades, or fails of either due to pregnancy...sickness, sick days, etc....adoption is a little late. Same with the impact on her job or career....it can be very damaging. Missing opportunities early in life can delay or damage her life irreparably.

    Women who CHOOSE pregnancy usually have a partner to share the burden of pregnancy and a financial safety net and have been able to finish an education or prepare to take time off work or make allowances there.

    And of course if she dies or has lifelong health complications....adoption's also a little late @_@
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  3. #203
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) nope, im giving you the facts and reality
    2.) you are mistaken see #1
    3.) at times society rights do take rank, never needs though as that is subjective. Maybe another country would suit you better if you rank subjective needs over rights and freedom
    1.) You're giving me what you perceive to be the facts and reality. You're looking at it from an individual rights standpoint. You're saying that it's her right as a person to have an abortion and that has nothing to do with me, therefore I have no say. That's true only if individual rights are more important than the needs of the society. Which takes us to point #3...

    3.) That's the way America works. If the needs/desires/beliefs of the society didn't trump the rights of the individual, we wouldn't ever have needed to have a civil rights movement, because everyone's individual rights would have been acknowledged right from the start.

    It doesn't work that way, it never has worked that way, and it never will work that way.

    Take taxes for example. A libertarian will say that my money and property belongs to me, nobody has the right to take it from me or tell me how to spend it. However, the needs of the society take precedent. That's why we have income tax. That's why we have welfare programs. That's why we have the ACA. We make people buy insurance, we make people pay taxes, all that because the needs of the many are what counts.

  4. #204
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Again: do you need words of one syllable?

    If she misses finishing high school or doesnt get into college because of poor grades, or fails of either due to pregnancy...sickness, sick days, etc....adoption is a little late. Same with the impact on her job or career....it can be very damaging. Missing opportunities early in life can delay or damage her life irreparably.

    Women who CHOOSE pregnancy usually have a partner to share the burden of pregnancy and a financial safety net and have been able to finish an education or prepare to take time off work or make allowances there.

    And of course if she dies or has lifelong health complications....adoption's also a little late @_@
    Why would she miss high school because of pregnancy? Pregnancy doesn't work like that. If she's giving it up for adoption, she might need a couple weeks off... tops.

    I'm sure she could make up the work. If not, I'd be in favor of making it mandatory for schools to allow her to do so, legally.

  5. #205
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    1.) You're giving me what you perceive to be the facts and reality. You're looking at it from an individual rights standpoint.
    2.)You're saying that it's her right as a person to have an abortion and that has nothing to do with me, therefore I have no say. That's true only if individual rights are more important than the needs of the society. Which takes us to point #3...

    3.) That's the way America works. If the needs/desires/beliefs of the society didn't trump the rights of the individual, we wouldn't ever have needed to have a civil rights movement, because everyone's individual rights would have been acknowledged right from the start.

    4.)It doesn't work that way, it never has worked that way, and it never will work that way.

    5.)Take taxes for example. A libertarian will say that my money and property belongs to me, nobody has the right to take it from me or tell me how to spend it. However, the needs of the society take precedent. That's why we have income tax. That's why we have welfare programs. That's why we have the ACA. We make people buy insurance, we make people pay taxes, all that because the needs of the many are what counts.
    1.) nope i gave you what facts and reality are in this country
    2.) this is where your mistake is, "im" not saying anything laws, rights, court cases and facts say it
    3.) since your false assumption in two failed 3 is only a continuance of your mistake
    4.) good thing i never made your strawman claim then
    5.) this is about abortion, thanks.
    so far nothing as changed, my post stands
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  6. #206
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) nope i gave you what facts and reality are in this country
    2.) this is where your mistake is, "im" not saying anything laws, rights, court cases and facts say it
    3.) since your false assumption in two failed 3 is only a continuance of your mistake
    4.) good thing i never made your strawman claim then
    5.) this is about abortion, thanks.
    so far nothing as changed, my post stands
    Your post stands as your opinion. I already said you're entitled to your opinion.

    You have your opinion, I have mine.

    The only thing is, I don't think you are following what I'm telling you about libertarianism vs looking out for the good of society and how that frames the bigger argument. Oh well.

  7. #207
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Why would she miss high school because of pregnancy? Pregnancy doesn't work like that. If she's giving it up for adoption, she might need a couple weeks off... tops.

    I'm sure she could make up the work. If not, I'd be in favor of making it mandatory for schools to allow her to do so, legally.
    What are you basing that on? Girls drop out of school all the time because of pregnancy...pregnancy for many women makes them very sick...esp at the beginning. It's called failing out. It's called too many sick days and having to repeat a yr. It's called your parents kick you out and you have to go live with relatives and start all over again. OR it's called living on the street or a halfway house and not being able to attend at all.

    As for jobs...many entry level and unskilled labor jobs will cut you loose or cut your pay. You only have so much sick time. Pregnancy is exhausting. And if you have a profession or career, it can immediately bump you off the advancement track...due to sickness or just plain old anticipation that now 'mommy' will put baby before career.

    Yours was one of the most uninformed posts I've ever read. You didnt put a second of thought into it...(I'd hate to think you attempted to).
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  8. #208
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    1.)Your post stands as your opinion. I already said you're entitled to your opinion.

    2.)You have your opinion, I have mine.

    3.)The only thing is, I don't think you are following what I'm telling you about libertarianism vs looking out for the good of society and how that frames the bigger argument. Oh well.
    1.) nope its the way laws, rights, court cases, court precedence and facts are. Sorry facts prove you wrong.
    2.) havent given you mine but you have given me yours which is meaningless because of #1
    3.) of i follow your opinion but it doesnt mater
    facts > your opinion
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    What are you basing that on? Girls drop out of school all the time because of pregnancy...pregnancy for many women makes them very sick...esp at the beginning. It's called failing out. It's called too many sick days and having to repeat a yr. It's called your parents kick you out and you have to go live with relatives and start all over again. OR it's called living on the street or a halfway house and not being able to attend at all.

    As for jobs...many entry level and unskilled labor jobs will cut you loose or cut your pay. You only have so much sick time. Pregnancy is exhausting. And if you have a profession or career, it can immediately bump you off the advancement track...due to sickness or just plain old anticipation that now 'mommy' will put baby before career.

    Yours was one of the most uninformed posts I've ever read. You didnt put a second of thought into it...(I'd hate to think you attempted to).
    Cool it with the personal attacks. My sister just had a baby, I hung out with her every week as she lives in the same city, I'm pretty tuned in to the process. She was going to work all the way up until she went in to labor, just about. She's taking time off work now but that's because she kept her baby. If she had given it up, she could be back working now.

    I don't see any reason someone would have to fail out of school because they were bringing a child to term.

  10. #210
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    OK, not a bad answer but two things.

    First, you're a libertarian when it comes to the human body, but not when it comes to personal property. Acknowledged. HOWEVER.... note that not everybody shares that view. Plenty of people are libertarian when it comes to body AND property, while others are not libertarian in either case (myself).

    In actual fact, (second point) it's not legal to sell your kidney on ebay in the USA and it has little to do with trade regulations. It's the same reason it's not legal for me to go ask a doctor to end my life if I'm feeling depressed. It's the same reason it's not legal for me to have a doctor cut off my healthy leg just for fun.

    We as a society in the US are not libertarian when it comes to the body. If you are, just understand that not everyone thinks the same way.

    I noticed that you are Dutch - I believe things like euthanasia are legal in the Netherlands, so that libertarian attitude is more prevalent over there than in the United States.
    But I am not a libertarian. I am progressive/social democrat and what happens to someones property, as long as it is done in accordance with the law of the land and protected by an independent and fair judiciary, can be legal even if it is not fair. But your property is not the same thing as your body IMHO, you have a much higher right of ownership over your body than over the things your possess.

    That doctors are not allowed to do harm (and removing a kidney can be seen as doing your body harm) and that is a legal and ethical requirement. By removing an egg, zygote, embryo or even early stage fetus, you are not harming your body IMHO. As for removing your leg, if it is done for psychological reasons, then I think removing your healthy leg can be allowed. I have seen documentaries about people with body dismorphia who have real mental suffering and anguish because they are mentally convinced that (for example) they are supposed to be without a left lower leg/foot. These people at times risk their lives to disfigure their bodies in such a way that it conforms with their ideal picture. But these cases are rare and should only be done after long and intensive mental treatment to try and "heal" their condition. But if that is impossible, and the only way to stop them from risking their lives is by amputating a foot or leg, than maybe that should be possible.

    Legal is a big word when it comes to euthanasia. If you follow the rules and regulations to the letter, you will not be prosecuted. Break those guidelines and you are open to prosecution.

    The same with cannabis, people act like in the Netherlands you are allowed to smoke to your hearts content. That is not the case, if you smoke cannabis in a coffee shop you will not be prosecuted. Take your legally bought cannabis/pot home with you and you are stopped by the police, you will be relieved of that cannabis by the police because it is not legal to be in possession of said cannabis outside the coffee shop. Carrying anything up to 5 grams will not be prosecuted but as it is still illegal, your drugs will be impounded and destroyed.

    The odds of you being nicked with 3 grams of pot on you are slim but if you drive impaired or do something else that puts you on the radar of the police, you will be searched and upon finding cannabis this will still be impounded because even though it is decriminalized, it remains illegal to own cannabis. Anything above the 5 grams will most likely get you prosecuted though. We do not want to be an interfering nanny state but not prosecuting possession of cannabis/pot is not the same as it being legal.

    I think the Netherlands is the perfect mix (if you want to call it that) of libertarians, liberals, progressives and social democrats/socialists when it comes to social issues like drugs possession, euthanasia and abortion. But also when it comes to, for example support of religious education. In the Netherlands religious education has the same right to public funding as non-religious education.

    I am an atheist so my parents let me go to a public school from ages 6 to 12. Then, because we lived in a very Christian region of my country, my parents were not able to find a public secondary school for me but there were a lot of choices still left. I went to a progressive protestant school next where I had to go to religious studies (mandatory) but mostly it was more civil classes with religion mixed into it. Next I went to a catholic higher education but there I was allowed to skip religious studies because there it was not mandatory. But all of these schools, the religious and public ones still had the same public funding because they all had to comply with the countrywide study targets and methods. Every kid had to do the state run exams in the end and the books schools had to use also had to be to certain mandatory standards and content.

    What I am really saying is that we are a weird and somewhat messed up country. The country is mainly steeped in Calvinism, with large blocks of Catholicism and large blocks of the country where social democracy reigns supreme. We have always been a country of compromise due to our diverse make up and political reality. To be honest, we are a bit nuts and that is what works here in the Netherlands but is not easily copied to other countries (nor should it be).

    We like that people who are dying a horrific death have the freedom to choose to end their own lives (as long as the rules are followed) but doctors still have the right to not want to participate in euthanasia. Every doctor has the freedom to choose whether or not they want to perform the medical procedure that is euthanasia.

    But what is imperative here is that we would not let an animal suffer a horrendously painful death, than who are we to deny someone who is fully capable to make an informed decision, a humane end to their life if they should choose to.

    My grandfather died through euthanasia when it was not regulated in the Netherlands. The doctors over-medicated him with morphine. He was in the final stages of lung cancer. A disease that was made worse with his miners lungs. He had worked most of his adult life in the dutch coal mines and his lungs were shot before he was 50. When he contracted lung cancer he quickly deteriorated and the strong willed and independent man that he had been all of his life was so weak that slime was pooling in his lungs and the nurses had to palpitate his chest so that he was not suffocating too badly from it. He was so weak that he was unable to cough anymore. His legs had diminished to where his upper legs were smaller in diameter than my wrist. He was barely able to sit let alone stand anymore and he was weakening daily. His greatest fear was that he was going to suffocate to death. In the end, on his own request, he was given a larger than normal dose of painkilling morphine. His body was unable to handle that larger dose and he died peacefully in his sleep. He died after having said his goodbye's and with what pride he had left in him. We were all sad to have lost him, but all of us were happy that his suffering had ended.

    Now, like him, everybody in the country has the right to decide to die when they are dying and they feel it is time. Most will wait until the last moment and even more will never choose euthanasia. But if they wanted to, they had the choice to make that decision.
    Last edited by Peter King; 01-24-14 at 01:48 AM. Reason: small error in grammar, wrote polling where I meant to write pooling
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