View Poll Results: Are you pro life or pro choice?

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  • Pro Life

    34 33.01%
  • Pro choice

    69 66.99%
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Thread: Are you pro life or pro choice?

  1. #171
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Let's focus on the first part of your response. You say it's not my decision to make. That's a libertarian argument. If we were all consistently libertarian, I would buy "it's not your decision" as a valid justification. The reality is, though, we are not.... far from it.

    The government takes your property in spite of the fact that there are those who would say it's not yours to take. The government mandates that you cannot sell your kidney on ebay, in spite of the fact that it's your kidney. The government tells you that you can't smoke crack cocaine, in spite of the fact that it's your life.

    The fact is, we get in each other's business all the time. We aren't libertarians. Therefore the libertarian argument to justify abortion just isn't very strong. If we as a society deem abortion to be destructive to society as a whole, we have every right to regulate it.
    Your property is something entirely different than your body. You are talking about possessions where I am talking about the integrity of your body and your right to decide what happens inside your body. If you are idiotic enough to want to remove your kidney and you find a doctor that is willing to do it, be my guest. If you however want to do it to sell it, then the government may interfere because that is not meddling with the integrity of your body but with trade laws and rules.

    The government has made the ownership of crack cocaine illegal because it is their right to make illicit drugs illegal. That is also not interfering with the integrity of your body but with regulating the use and abuse of controlled substances.

    Forbidding an abortion is interfering with the integrity of the body and the steward of that body (the woman) to decide what happens inside her body.
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  2. #172
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It's very disrespectful IMO to minimize what women deal with during a pregnancy or raising a child they arent prepared for.
    I think to terminate a pregnancy minimizes that a lot more. You're taking the gift of life and saying "no thanks." That can't be right.

  3. #173
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Pro-life personally, but I vote pro-choice.
    I will never have an abortion but I don't see any good that comes from jailing a mother for getting one



  4. #174
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I think to terminate a pregnancy minimizes that a lot more. You're taking the gift of life and saying "no thanks." That can't be right.
    WHat 'gift?' Someone has to recognize a gift. It may never even BE born. So of course it should not come before the woman...a fetus reducing a woman to a 2nd class citizen?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  5. #175
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    1.)Well, I see a ZEF as a possibility for a human life and alive (like any cell in ones body is alive) but not a human life or human being.
    2.) And the only one with rights in that early part of the pregnancy is the woman who is carrying that ZEF.

    3.)There can never be equal rights for the ZEF or the woman
    4.) the rights in the early part of the pregnancy should rest solely with the woman.
    5.) It is always one or the other that has the rights, sharing those rights are impossible to achieve.
    1.) its not a possibility, it is factually human(adj) life
    depending on the stage it is also factually a human being (fetus)
    2.) correct, thats how it factually is now and thats the way i would want it to stay in general when you say "early part"

    and i say in general because i totally support double murder for a person that kills a pregnant woman

    3.) correct this is a FACT
    4.) i agree with this opinion
    5.) correct this is a fact
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  6. #176
    Sporadic insanity normal.


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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Your property is something entirely different than your body. You are talking about possessions where I am talking about the integrity of your body and your right to decide what happens inside your body. If you are idiotic enough to want to remove your kidney and you find a doctor that is willing to do it, be my guest. If you however want to do it to sell it, then the government may interfere because that is not meddling with the integrity of your body but with trade laws and rules.

    The government has made the ownership of crack cocaine illegal because it is their right to make illicit drugs illegal. That is also not interfering with the integrity of your body but with regulating the use and abuse of controlled substances.

    Forbidding an abortion is interfering with the integrity of the body and the steward of that body (the woman) to decide what happens inside her body.
    If this is your reasoning, I would argue that ingesting illegal drugs should not be illegal. Or is it that way already? I know little to nothing about drug laws.
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  7. #177
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Your property is something entirely different than your body. You are talking about possessions where I am talking about the integrity of your body and your right to decide what happens inside your body. If you are idiotic enough to want to remove your kidney and you find a doctor that is willing to do it, be my guest. If you however want to do it to sell it, then the government may interfere because that is not meddling with the integrity of your body but with trade laws and rules.

    The government has made the ownership of crack cocaine illegal because it is their right to make illicit drugs illegal. That is also not interfering with the integrity of your body but with regulating the use and abuse of controlled substances.

    Forbidding an abortion is interfering with the integrity of the body and the steward of that body (the woman) to decide what happens inside her body.
    OK, not a bad answer but two things.

    First, you're a libertarian when it comes to the human body, but not when it comes to personal property. Acknowledged. HOWEVER.... note that not everybody shares that view. Plenty of people are libertarian when it comes to body AND property, while others are not libertarian in either case (myself).

    In actual fact, (second point) it's not legal to sell your kidney on ebay in the USA and it has little to do with trade regulations. It's the same reason it's not legal for me to go ask a doctor to end my life if I'm feeling depressed. It's the same reason it's not legal for me to have a doctor cut off my healthy leg just for fun.

    We as a society in the US are not libertarian when it comes to the body. If you are, just understand that not everyone thinks the same way.

    I noticed that you are Dutch - I believe things like euthanasia are legal in the Netherlands, so that libertarian attitude is more prevalent over there than in the United States.

  8. #178
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I think to terminate a pregnancy minimizes that a lot more. You're taking the gift of life and saying "no thanks." That can't be right.
    Yeah...the mother's life means nothing. Not her life, not her chance to fulfill her potential. We'd rather be self-righteous and pretend that a fetus is better than her, and ignore that it could be physically or mentally defective...or even not be miscarried...but sure, let's just throw away the mother's rights on the chance that it will be born ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #179
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    WHat 'gift?' Someone has to recognize a gift. It may never even BE born. So of course it should not come before the woman...a fetus reducing a woman to a 2nd class citizen?
    Life is a gift. How many couples are out there that would love nothing more than to have a child but are unable? Therefore, it's a gift. That's my main problem with abortion. It's not that it's murder - I don't believe that it is. It's that you're throwing something precious away.

  10. #180
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Yeah...the mother's life means nothing. Not her life, not her chance to fulfill her potential. We'd rather be self-righteous and pretend that a fetus is better than her, and ignore that it could be physically or mentally defective...or even not be miscarried...but sure, let's just throw away the mother's rights on the chance that it will be born ok.
    Having a child will not ruin anyone's potential.

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