View Poll Results: Do you accept a patient pronounced "brain dead" as dead (legally and otherwise)

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  • Yes

    62 93.94%
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Thread: Do you believe brain death is death?

  1. #61
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    Re: Do you believe brain death is death?

    misdiagnoses happens. Not sure it serves as an argument against brain death being a reasonable basis for medical and legal death

  2. #62
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    Re: Do you believe brain death is death?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    That's different than this situation, due to the stage of pregnancy, I would think.

    It just seems grotesque to keep a dead person's body alive on the off chance that the partially developed fetus inside will develop fully...
    Well yeah, the outcome's going to be different every time based on why and when the brain injury occurred and how this affected the flow of oxygen and nutrients to the kid.

    This is not that irregular was my point. I don't understand why you find offering life support to a living patient to be grotesque. If the kid can live despite his mom's injury then why not save the patient you can save?

  3. #63
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    Re: Do you believe brain death is death?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    Well yeah, the outcome's going to be different every time based on why and when the brain injury occurred and how this affected the flow of oxygen and nutrients to the kid.

    This is not that irregular was my point. I don't understand why you find offering life support to a living patient to be grotesque. If the kid can live despite his mom's injury then why not save the patient you can save?
    As I understood things, the mother was dead (the brain dead part), and the fetus's chance of survival was low - I'm not sure what other issues might show up due to a fetus developing inside a brain-dead body.
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  4. #64
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    Re: Do you believe brain death is death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    misdiagnoses happens. Not sure it serves as an argument against brain death being a reasonable basis for medical and legal death
    I read a little about the guy in the article. The doctors pronounced him dead, a surgical team was there ready to harvest organs and he heard everything they were saying. Then he woke up.

    Count me in the "I don't know" column.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Do you believe brain death is death?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    As I understood things, the mother was dead (the brain dead part), and the fetus's chance of survival was low - I'm not sure what other issues might show up due to a fetus developing inside a brain-dead body.
    It doesn't happen enough to make a statistical model with any certainty about the chances of survival. Yes, in both the Michigan case and this Texas case the mom was brain dead. In both cases, the mom was on life support for over a month despite being legitimately and accurately declared brain dead.

    In the Michigan case, the twins were both born healthy, the mom's organs were then donated in accordance with the mom's organ donor card (I mention this because people have been stating odd misinformation about brain death with short term life support causing other organ donation to be impossible).

    In the Texas case, it's now irrelevant because we will have no data, the life support has ended and Mrs. Munoz's kid will now suffocate and die, probably already has. All we know is that at the current gestational age the kid could not be born and live. In only a week or two that might not have been the case. The fact that this was not appealed for the kid's sake to delay and allow for a c-section is obscenity. But that's for another thread.
    Last edited by JayDubya; 01-26-14 at 07:12 PM.

  6. #66
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    Re: Do you believe brain death is death?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    It doesn't happen enough to make a statistical model with any certainty about the chances of survival. Yes, in both the Michigan case and this Texas case the mom was brain dead. In both cases, the mom was on life support for over a month despite being legitimately and accurately declared brain dead.

    In the Michigan case, the twins were both born healthy, the mom's organs were then donated...

    In the Texas case, it's now irrelevant because we will have no data, the life support has ended and Mrs. Munoz's kid will now suffocate and die, probably already has. All we know is that at the current gestational age the kid could not be born and live. In only a week or two that might not have been the case. The fact that this was not appealed for the kid's sake to delay and allow for a c-section is obscenity. But that's for another thread.
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  7. #67
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    Re: Do you believe brain death is death?

    Quote Originally Posted by EdwinWillers View Post
    If a patient cannot survive without permanent mechanical assistance, then I'd say (in my absolute lack of medical expertise) they were probably dead.

    Having said that, someone who's been revived with an AED or with CPR, who wouldn't have been revived otherwise, would probably disagree.

    Question is, is there a chance mechanical assistance can revive the patient? I don't have such knowledge. But it seems to me if there is no sign of brain activity, there is a high probability the patient will never recover either on their own or with the help of mechanical assistance. Tough call.
    We were told that if he recovered, he would be blind, unable to walk or talk, or to help himself in any way. His brain damage was too extensive from having his skull crushed into the pavement by a huge 36 inch round limb that broke off a tree and flew like a javelin from a tree he was helping a neighbor cut down... a truly freak accident. The decision was made to pull the plug, since he was an multi-tropheyed athlete well known in this area for being one of the most talented baseball players ever to play the game here, and we felt he would never forgive us for not allowing him to go. They kept him on life support for a few days until the family could get here from Texas. This was a few years ago, just days from his 46th birthday, and he died within minutes of having life support removed. He was my son, and left behind a wife and a young daughter he adored, in addition to me and the rest of the family.

    Greetings, EdwinWillers.

  8. #68
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    Re: Do you believe brain death is death?

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    We were told that if he recovered, he would be blind, unable to walk or talk, or to help himself in any way. His brain damage was too extensive from having his skull crushed into the pavement by a huge 36 inch round limb that broke off a tree and flew like a javelin from a tree he was helping a neighbor cut down... a truly freak accident. The decision was made to pull the plug, since he was an multi-tropheyed athlete well known in this area for being one of the most talented baseball players ever to play the game here, and we felt he would never forgive us for not allowing him to go. They kept him on life support for a few days until the family could get here from Texas. This was a few years ago, just days from his 46th birthday, and he died within minutes of having life support removed. He was my son, and left behind a wife and a young daughter he adored, in addition to me and the rest of the family.

    Greetings, EdwinWillers.
    Our family had to make that call a couple of months ago to have a family member removed from total life support. It's a very hard thing to do. So sorry for your loss.

  9. #69
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    Re: Do you believe brain death is death?

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    We were told that if he recovered, he would be blind, unable to walk or talk, or to help himself in any way. His brain damage was too extensive from having his skull crushed into the pavement by a huge 36 inch round limb that broke off a tree and flew like a javelin from a tree he was helping a neighbor cut down... a truly freak accident. The decision was made to pull the plug, since he was an multi-tropheyed athlete well known in this area for being one of the most talented baseball players ever to play the game here, and we felt he would never forgive us for not allowing him to go. They kept him on life support for a few days until the family could get here from Texas. This was a few years ago, just days from his 46th birthday, and he died within minutes of having life support removed. He was my son, and left behind a wife and a young daughter he adored, in addition to me and the rest of the family.

    Greetings, EdwinWillers.
    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Our family had to make that call a couple of months ago to have a family member removed from total life support. It's a very hard thing to do. So sorry for your loss.
    I'm so sorry....

    Hugs to both of you. *Hugs*
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  10. #70
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    Re: Do you believe brain death is death?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Our family had to make that call a couple of months ago to have a family member removed from total life support. It's a very hard thing to do. So sorry for your loss.
    That's one of the main issues as I understand it - a brain-dead person on life support appears to just be sleeping...
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    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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