View Poll Results: should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason

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  • yes

    75 52.45%
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Thread: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish[W:126]

  1. #471
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    As an employer, I have one problem with that. The employee can quit at any time for any reason and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it so it doesn't really work out as equitably as you suggest.
    I've worked for companies who make you agree to a charge on your last check if you quite without giving 2-weeks notice (exceptions exist). The charge is justified as 'the cost of over time other employees put in to cover your sudden absence.

    So, yes, there is something you can do about, just for some reason you choose not to do it. That's your choice.

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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJR View Post
    Private business. Private. Key work here. It's private, IE: owner has the right to do what he/she wants with the place. When the employee becomes the owner, he/she can make the calls.
    If you fire an employee just because they have brown eyes, is a woman, or is a Muslim, they are going to win a wrongful-termination claim against you and draw unemployment off of you:
    Wrongful Termination of At Will Employment

    The Civil Rights Act in 1964 extended anti-discrimination protections to employees, whose employment could no longer be terminated for reasons such as their race, gender, skin color, religion, or national origin. Additional legal protections now exist to deter certain forms of age discrimination. Following the creation of these anti-discrimination laws, it became possible for employees to argue that their terminations were "pretextual" - that is, although their employers were citing lawful reasons to terminate their employment, their employers were actually motivated by unlawful discriminatory motives.

    ~snip~

    Some states will permit an "at will" employee to bring a lawsuit on the basis that the employer violated an implied covenant of "good faith and fair dealing" in association with the termination decision. In such states, even with an at-will employee, the employer must extend some degree of fairness in the decision to terminate employment.
    ******
    If you remove a customer just because they have brown eyes, is a woman, or is a Muslim, you will be cited by the State for braking Public Accommodation codes.

    For example:
    South Dakota Code 20-13-23

    20-13-23. Public accommodations--Unfair or discriminatory practices. It shall be an unfair or discriminatory practice for any person engaged in the provision of public accommodations because of race, color, creed, religion, sex, ancestry, disability, or national origin, to fail or refuse to provide to any person access to the use of and benefit from the services and facilities of such public accommodations; or to accord adverse, unlawful, or unequal treatment to any person with respect to the availability of such services and facilities, the price or other consideration therefor, the scope and equality thereof, or the terms and conditions under which the same are made available, including terms and conditions relating to credit, payment, warranties, delivery, installation, and repair.
    When you open your business to the public, you have to conduct 'fair and equal treatment' to each person who voluntarily walks through your door. You cannot deny access to your business just because a customer is one of these protected classes. You cannot refuse to sell to a customer just because the customer belongs to one of these classes.

  3. #473
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Absolutely not.

    Firing a person because of race, religion, color, gender (for example) should not only NOT be allowed but it should be against the law.
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish[W:126]

    Quote Originally Posted by lawboy View Post
    Just seeing where you stand, so you agree with that law, but not other employment laws!

    You said you were fired before, for what?
    Once for incompetence. I simply did not have sufficient skills for the job I was hired to do. Once because somebody else higher up wanted my job. I'll have to admit I took some personal satisfaction in that they wound up firing her because she couldn't do it, and replaced me with two people.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish[W:126]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Once for incompetence. I simply did not have sufficient skills for the job I was hired to do. Once because somebody else higher up wanted my job. I'll have to admit I took some personal satisfaction in that they wound up firing her because she couldn't do it, and replaced me with two people.
    Hey, I was fired once, about 25 years ago, because the company was desperately trying to downsize so they trumped up charges against all of their most expensive employees and terminated them en masse so they wouldn't have to pay unemployment. Then they doubled up on all of the jobs. I fought it through the EEOC and won, they ended up paying me unemployment because they had no valid case against me.
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish[W:126]

    Quote Originally Posted by lawboy View Post
    I did not dodge any such thing,
    You didn't answer my question or respond to my scenario or in anyway try to give me knowledge. Instead you asked another question. that is textbook dodging.

    again, you do NOT understand the legal points here, how a layman interprets a Clause/word may be, and is different here, to your understanding.
    Yes, I am aware of that, as I've worked in technical fields with technical definitions...including having to be familiar with many legal terms and concepts.

    But you're wrong in this case. "Any reason," while it could include a specific reason at a specific time such as "He hit me so I quit right then," , the base reason in that would be quitting due to assault and that reason would be acceptable if seperated from the timing. The timing is seperate from the reason. Yes, there may be some cases where the reason would be so inextricable from the timing they're the same, but that would be very unusual and not the general rule as you are claiming.

    But you do raise an interesting point...Are you claiming that AlbqOwl was using the word "any" in whatever legal sense you claim it has? If not, then it's inappropriate to insist on that use.
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    I'd face it as a wise man would,/And train for ill and not for good.

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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish[W:126]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Hey, I was fired once, about 25 years ago, because the company was desperately trying to downsize so they trumped up charges against all of their most expensive employees and terminated them en masse so they wouldn't have to pay unemployment. Then they doubled up on all of the jobs. I fought it through the EEOC and won, they ended up paying me unemployment because they had no valid case against me.
    My argument has not been for or against unemployment insurance as I do not see that as the topic of this thread.

    My argument has not been for or against HOW somebody fires somebody or who is scum or noble in those circumstances.

    My argument is the principle that if we are a nation based on a principle of liberty and unalienable rights, so long as he does not violate the rights of others, the employer must be able to use his legally and ethically acquired property and resources in his own interests as he sees fit. And if he sees fit to serve his own interests by firing the employee, so be it. The employee has no right to anything the employer has that the employer and employee did not agree to.

    What society does about the employee who has been fired is a totally different subject.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish[W:126]

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    But you're wrong in this case. "Any reason," while it could include a specific reason at a specific time such as "He hit me so I quit right then," , the base reason in that would be quitting due to assault and that reason would be acceptable if seperated from the timing. The timing is seperate from the reason. Yes, there may be some cases where the reason would be so inextricable from the timing they're the same, but that would be very unusual and not the general rule as you are claiming.

    But you do raise an interesting point...Are you claiming that AlbqOwl was using the word "any" in whatever legal sense you claim it has? If not, then it's inappropriate to insist on that use.
    I'm entirely fine with employers terminating employees for any reason that is not restricted by law. You cannot fire an employee for refusing to have sex with you. You cannot fire an employee because they are black, because they are female, because they follow a different religion, etc. Any other reason though, including "I don't like you, get out of my business" is fine. However, there are people who assert that employees somehow "deserve" the job, that they're "entitled" to work there and I think that's utterly ridiculous. Nobody deserves a damn thing.
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish[W:126]

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    My argument has not been for or against unemployment insurance as I do not see that as the topic of this thread.

    My argument has not been for or against HOW somebody fires somebody or who is scum or noble in those circumstances.

    My argument is the principle that if we are a nation based on a principle of liberty and unalienable rights, so long as he does not violate the rights of others, the employer must be able to use his legally and ethically acquired property and resources in his own interests as he sees fit. And if he sees fit to serve his own interests by firing the employee, so be it. The employee has no right to anything the employer has that the employer and employee did not agree to.

    What society does about the employee who has been fired is a totally different subject.
    Which is exactly what I've been saying. The employee can quit for any reason they want. The employer can fire the employee for any reason they want, excepting for things established as illegal. No harm, no foul.
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If you fire an employee just because they have brown eyes, is a woman, or is a Muslim, they are going to win a wrongful-termination claim against you and draw unemployment off of you:


    ******
    If you remove a customer just because they have brown eyes, is a woman, or is a Muslim, you will be cited by the State for braking Public Accommodation codes.

    For example:

    When you open your business to the public, you have to conduct 'fair and equal treatment' to each person who voluntarily walks through your door. You cannot deny access to your business just because a customer is one of these protected classes. You cannot refuse to sell to a customer just because the customer belongs to one of these classes.
    Why though? I mean, if you do that stuff, yeah you're conducting terrible business. However, who's business is it in how you conduct business? Doesn't this fall under the same scenario of what you do behind closed doors? Who's business is it? Why is it their business?

    I say, if it's your place, you sink or swim, dress accordingly. In this instance, if you're stupid enough to conduct foolish business practices, in 2014, you won't last long.
    Catholic church won't marry gay people. Unitarian will. So...tell me who's numbers are growing....it isn't the Catholics. Same goes for business.
    If it's yours, you make the calls. Gov has no place in this.

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