View Poll Results: should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason

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  • yes

    75 52.45%
  • no

    68 47.55%
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Thread: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish[W:126]

  1. #241
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Quote Originally Posted by lawboy View Post
    What if they "downsized" as an excuse to fire them to make more profit, then simply did not rehire most of the positions back?

    This is not the same as the rosie the riveter days?
    I added the following to my above post:

    Personally, though I don't think the government should force employers to take back the returning troops if they don't want them back (or have no room for them).

    But - as much as I hate make work projects - I do think the government should offer these veterans some sort of nearby employment or a make-work project at a similar wage to what they had for a certain period of time...say 1 year.

    I just don't believe you can call up reservists for long periods of time and then expect them to completely fend for themselves once their active duty is over - even if they are mentally/physically fine. They are making such a huge potential sacrifice - the nation owes them a chance to get back on their feet if their previous job is unavailable.

  2. #242
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Quote Originally Posted by lawboy View Post
    So "tens of thousands" are out of work, nice for the economy?
    Taking emotion out of the problem we find that this is not the case. In fact, the forcible removal of tens of thousands of workers from the economy is quite adverse to the economy.

    To begin with, a person who contracts with the government to come at its beck and call does so on a voluntary basis. If the protection of jobs was not included in this contract, it would greatly affect the number of individuals who volunteer for this duty. By imposing this protectionist policy on the market, the government increases the costs associated with hiring a reservist.

    Assuming that this policy was stricken, reservists would know that they take their fate into their own hands when they sign on the dotted line. As they should. They also know that future employers may or may not offer their old job back after the cessation of their government duties. This would be a potential marketing aspect for employers looking for certain types of talent.

    But as DA60 pointed out, the tens of thousands of reservists leaving for duty must be replaced by tens of thousands of new workers. It would be folly to assume that the positions would simply remain empty. With new workers comes new training costs (not to mention the costs involved in simply finding adequate talent). With the reintroduction of the reservists, the replacement workers would suddenly find themselves back on the street - though potentially with new talents and experience. The employer, however, would be saddled with high expenses of replacement and shocks to production.

    From an economic standpoint, this is lunacy. From a moral standpoint, you take the side of the reservist and completely ignore the position of the employer and the replacement worker; a highly subjective and hypocritical position.

  3. #243
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    I guess no further debate is needed for me here, I said my peace.

  4. #244
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Dear All,

    The majority of people working want job security. Since employees outnumber employers this will never change. If you want examples of why we need this, go google the industrial revolution. Employers will never again have the ability to freely fire employees for whatever they feel like - nor should they. There is no such thing as a perfect employer. Everyone is prone to bias and will likely act on that bias unless there is social consequences for doing so. Think of it as a trade off - in exchange for making all the big money, employees cannot be fired for frivolous or absurd reasons. Employers don't get to act like God - dictatorship is limited to avoid abuse of power.

    Love,

    Lord

    Ps - There is no reason you should have to keep an unqualified worker. If you can't think of a solution to an unruly or helpless employee, than perhaps you should rethink your competence. There is always a legal solution.
    Last edited by Lord; 01-27-14 at 01:00 PM.

  5. #245
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) not ignoring it at all, infact your stories are what are helping my point and not changing facts
    2.) is fact
    3.) havent given my interpretation only facts so i agree its irrelevant
    4.) what you THINK your experience is, is whats irrelevant lol
    5.) REALLY!, you too? lol
    6.) obviously you dont, you have proved this fact over and over again
    7.) great story, weird two of my jobs have been DIRECT government contractors and not ONCE has this ever come up, not once, the only think that has ever come up is making sure we follow the law. Whats even more funny is the most recent people we let go was a military person, a black gay and a woman, all because they werent good at thier jobs.
    8.) its EXACTLY how the "LAW" is practiced. ALl you did is give me examples (with no proof at all) of people you say/think broke the law. WHich AGAIN proves my point
    9.) really? thats what you think? the push comes from people who are bigoted or want to inpower discrimination. AA/EO isnt going anywhere, in fact many states, big cities etc are ADDING to it, in been being expanded and joined with all anti-discrimination laws since its creation
    10.) im not im dealing with reality, facts, and things that can actually be proves
    11.) thank you again for proving my point, police cause problems too, that doesn't mean police are bad lol

    your deflections and perceptions are never going to impact facts, reality and court cases so i can do this all day because they all prove your wrong and your stories make my point.
    Your ignorance of the way business works is absolutely stunning. You can dispute, demean and try to bully me about what I've said, but you can never say I don't know what I'm talking about. You have not seen what I have seen or experienced what I have. You sit there thinking you have the authority and insight to say what is true and not true in someone else's life. WOW, I wish I had the gift from God that allows you to know everything about the life and experience of others! Illegal or not, the law is used to form quota's. And when you hear of lawsuits because an entity hasn't hired a sufficient number of a particular minority, the AA is used as the base law for that law suit. That's why business form quota's, whether you want to admit it or not.

  6. #246
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord View Post
    Dear All,

    The majority of people working want job security. Since employees outnumber employers this will never change. If you want examples of why we need this, go google the industrial revolution. Employers will never again have the ability to freely fire employees for whatever they feel like - nor should they. There is no such thing as a perfect employer. Everyone is prone to bias and will likely act on that bias unless there is social consequences for doing so. Think of it as a trade off - in exchange for making all the big money, employees cannot be fired for frivolous or absurd reasons. Employers don't get to act like God - dictatorship is limited to avoid abuse of power.

    Love,

    Lord

    Ps - There is no reason you should have to keep an unqualified worker. If you can't think of a solution to an unruly or helpless employee, than perhaps you should rethink your competence. There is always a legal solution.
    Nobody should have to hire an unqualified worker in the first place.

    And the issue is not whether the unruly or under performing employee can be fired. They can IF their actions or performance is carefully documented and they are given opportunity to do better. And even then, the employer can face a civil rights lawsuit filed by an employee who was just itching for an excuse to file it. Then follows either a quick out-of-court settlement that almost always goes against the employer's interests - or - an expensive process that could cost the employer more to defend himself than the out-of-court settlement would cost.

    It should not be that way. The employer should be able to fire whomever he needs to in order to be profitable in his business. And the fact that a person is of color or a particular ethnic group or gay or female or any other criteria that might apply should not factor into that.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #247
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    I added the following to my above post:

    Personally, though I don't think the government should force employers to take back the returning troops if they don't want them back (or have no room for them).

    But - as much as I hate make work projects - I do think the government should offer these veterans some sort of nearby employment or a make-work project at a similar wage to what they had for a certain period of time...say 1 year.

    I just don't believe you can call up reservists for long periods of time and then expect them to completely fend for themselves once their active duty is over - even if they are mentally/physically fine. They are making such a huge potential sacrifice - the nation owes them a chance to get back on their feet if their previous job is unavailable.
    Two schools of thought here.

    Philosophically, I would like more effort to help our warriors re-enter the civilian world, but not as a direct payment benefit. Tax incentives or other forms of promotion, probably okay. We owe that much to those who put their lives on the line on behalf of their country.

    But with our all volunteer military, people choose to enter and choose to leave the military. They could elect to stay in for 30 years or whatever and retire with a fairly comfortable pension. The fact that they choose to leave earlier should not entitle them to special privileges. The choices are always theirs. That includes those in the Reserves, National Guard or whatever. That also is purely voluntary. While I salute those who do it--I'm one of those folks who greets the returning troops at the airport--and have the utmost reverence and respect for those who serve their country in that way. But it should never be reduced to just another entitlement in a way that encourages people to sign up just long enough to get on the gravy train.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #248
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Sans contract, that's the way it is. Works for me.

    Edit: The German has reminded me that various state and federal civil rights laws prohibit discrimination. I should say that I agree with these laws. Hard to enforce, but no one should be fired for being gay, pregnant, black, Muslim, etc.
    Sexual Harrassment, Pregnancy etc. Not such a good idea. If you break company policy then yes.
    Mike

  9. #249
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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Quote Originally Posted by mperry View Post
    Sexual Harrassment, Pregnancy etc. Not such a good idea. If you break company policy then yes.
    Sexual harassment should be illegal anywhere under any circumstances as much as any other harassment is illegal. But the issue is not WHY an employer fires somebody.

    The issue is whether the employer, so long as he does not interfere with the rights of others, is allowed an unalienable right to use his lawfully gained resources and property as he/she sees fit for his/her own benefit. I, as an employer, may need to fire somebody just because I lost a contract or otherwise cannot keep everybody on the payroll or just because the extra person did not increase productivity as anticipated. Wouldn't it make sense to fire the pregnant gal who will be leaving in a few weeks or months anyway and keep the people who I can count on to be there? Wouldn't it make sense to fire the person who does his/her job competently but is the least efficient team player and who is the least valued among his/her coworkers?

    I am not asking what makes me more noble or fair minded or praiseworthy or whatever. If I'm the biggest jerk and most selfish SOB on the planet, the principle remains the same. So long as I am not violating anybody else's rights, should I be able to use my resources and property for my benefit? Or should the government be able to require me to use my resources and property as it wants me to use them? Does anybody have an unalienable right to be my employee?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  10. #250
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Should employers have the freedom to hire/fire for any reason they wish

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetelestai View Post
    1.)Your ignorance of the way business works is absolutely stunning.
    2.)You can dispute, demean and try to bully me about what I've said, but you can never say I don't know what I'm talking about. You have not seen what I have seen or experienced what I have.
    3.) You sit there thinking you have the authority and insight to say what is true and not true in someone else's life.
    4.) WOW, I wish I had the gift from God that allows you to know everything about the life and experience of others!
    5.) Illegal or not, the law is used to form quota's. And when you hear of lawsuits because an entity hasn't hired a sufficient number of a particular minority, the AA is used as the base law for that law suit. That's why business form quota's, whether you want to admit it or not.
    1.) failed deflection 1
    2.) failed deflection 2
    3.) failed deflection 3
    4.) failed deflection 4
    5.) 100% false as already proven

    let me know when you have any facts to support your failed position that facts, laws and court cases already prove wrong thanks!
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