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Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?


  • Total voters
    29
You have your quotes, and I have mine. I take your John Stuart Mill and raise you one Achilles.



:lol: I will happily take Mill over Brad Pitt.
 
As with most things human it can be both good and bad depending on the situation. It can turn into xenophobic attitudes but it can also bring a country together to accomplish a difficult task - like defeating the Axis in WWII.
 
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:lol: I will happily take Mill over Brad Pitt.

It's in The Iliad, but it's punchier to link the Hollywood version. Achilles is the first true action hero... and like the heroes of the day he fought for himself and not a king.

In a way it typifies greek democracy, which was much more "democratic," shall we say, than our own version.
 
It's in The Iliad, but it's punchier to link the Hollywood version. Achilles is the first true action hero... and like the heroes of the day he fought for himself and not a king.

And who is King of America?

In a way it typifies greek democracy, which was much more "democratic," shall we say, than our own version.

True - and their experience is precisely why our Founders feared devolving into such a system.
 
Nationalism is a broad concept. While people tend to think of oppressive regimes and international instability, it is also a stabilizing force and a force for self-determination. Without nationalism, it becomes immensely difficult for groups around the world to see themselves as being able to (or justified in) self-rule. When rule is established, nationalism continues its stabilizing presence, though it too can descend into exaggeration. Nevertheless, the notion that one group finds themselves unique or modestly to moderately superior is hardly in of itself a bad thing. Rather, it is quite common and can even be good.


Well luckily for you, I don't see nationalism going away any time soon. The gullible masses will always be gullible. The lemmings will jump off a cliff when they're told to do so.

America is nothing more than the sum of all the Americans. Yet we're led to believe that we have this grand mission in the world. Horse****.
 
And who is King of America?



True - and their experience is precisely why our Founders feared devolving into such a system.

Authority is still authority, whether it's one man with a beard and a crown or a roomful of men in a parliament. They still have their own interests which have little to do with you.

With enough money, you can buy anything... including airtime, judges, and politicians.
 
Well luckily for you, I don't see nationalism going away any time soon. The gullible masses will always be gullible. The lemmings will jump off a cliff when they're told to do so.

America is nothing more than the sum of all the Americans. Yet we're led to believe that we have this grand mission in the world. Horse****.

A world in which the western ideals embodied by America are dominant is a world in which those ideals are spread. I support those ideals, and so I support our dominance. :shrug:
 
Authority is still authority, whether it's one man with a beard and a crown or a roomful of men in a parliament. They still have their own interests which have little to do with you.

Interesting to see you turn so quickly against the possibility of government acting in my good interests. Thank goodness those people aren't in charge of my healthcare, eh?

With enough money, you can buy anything... including airtime, judges, and politicians.

:shrug: and you will only do so if it is within your interests, which it only will be if the ROI is higher than alternatives. That requires that politicians be able to steer the economy your way. Whenever you legislate buying and selling, the first things bought and sold will be legislators.
 
I have 2 passports/citizenships, only time it is an issue is if they play a soccer match against each other.
 
Well luckily for you, I don't see nationalism going away any time soon. The gullible masses will always be gullible. The lemmings will jump off a cliff when they're told to do so.

America is nothing more than the sum of all the Americans. Yet we're led to believe that we have this grand mission in the world. Horse****.

If they are gullible, then perhaps nationalism is a good thing. I prefer nationalism to the supposedly enlightened viewpoint of radical individualists who are so taken in with utopianism, that any consultation with traditional hierarchy is akin to a pact with the Devil.
 
Interesting to see you turn so quickly against the possibility of government acting in my good interests. Thank goodness those people aren't in charge of my healthcare, eh?



:shrug: and you will only do so if it is within your interests, which it only will be if the ROI is higher than alternatives. That requires that politicians be able to steer the economy your way. Whenever you legislate buying and selling, the first things bought and sold will be legislators.

Somebody has to run the healthcare system. Insurance companies have your best interests at heart even less than governments do.

I think everyone should have access to healthcare, not just the rich.
 
A world in which the western ideals embodied by America are dominant is a world in which those ideals are spread. I support those ideals, and so I support our dominance. :shrug:

What ideals are those? I have my ideals, you have yours, I doubt my ideals overlap with yours any more than then do with a random Australian. So where does nationalism come in to the picture?
 
If they are gullible, then perhaps nationalism is a good thing. I prefer nationalism to the supposedly enlightened viewpoint of radical individualists who are so taken in with utopianism, that any consultation with traditional hierarchy is akin to a pact with the Devil.

Utopianism?
 
The problem with nationalism and patriotism is that they are usually accompanied by this;
jin·go·ism noun \ˈjiŋ-(ˌ)gō-ˌi-zəm\
: the feelings and beliefs of people who think that their country is always right and who are in favor of aggressive acts against other countries
 
What ideals are those? I have my ideals, you have yours,

well, from a governing perspective, things like the notion that rights belong to individuals, the importance of rule of law, that speech thought should be generally free, that women are co-equal individuals rather than property, that government should be representative in nature and that people should be able to choose their representatives free from threats or coercion, that it is better for countries to exchange goods than exchange bombs, the notion that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, etc.

I doubt my ideals overlap with yours any more than then do with a random Australian.

Very likely, given that that random Australian is also a product of not just Western intellectual development, but of Englands' Western intellectual development. If we were able to transition from a U.S. dominance in East Asia to an Australian dominance in a manner similar to the England-U.S. hand-off of 65 odd years ago, all to the good. But that is not what is likely to happen - the major regional powers outside of Western Europe are not advocates of our major common ideals, but rather generally authoritarian in nature.

What are you willing to bet on our overlap v that of (say) a random Pakistani's? How do you feel about the Chinese Communist Party's dedication to free speech, Putin's dedication to tolerance and representative government, or Iran's dedication to treating women equally?
 
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Somebody has to run the healthcare system. Insurance companies have your best interests at heart even less than governments do.

On the contrary - both are dominated by men and women seeking their own self interests, which, as you point out, may have little to do with me.

With one notable exception. Someone seeking to sell me a product requires my personal approval. Their interests require that they first offer me something which I perceive as being worth at least as much if not more than the price I am paying; and then, if their interests lead them in directions inimical to mine, I can chuck them overboard relatively easily. Politicians do not face that incentive structure. They do not require my personal approval. They also cannot be chucked overboard - thanks to the magic of gerrymandering, congresscritters can choose their voters rather than be chosen by them, and all they have to do is get the approval of enough others to counter-weigh my opposition. They have very reduced, very mitigated, and often non-existent incentives to see that our interests align, whereas someone attempting to sell me something has very strong incentives to see that our interests align.

There is no better reason for health insurance agencies to run the health care sector than there is for the association of restaurateurs to run the restaurant industry. Consumers should be driving both.


:) But we are getting off-topic.
 
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The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.

This is a very narrow definition of what nationalism and patriotism do for us. We are a democracy, nominally based on the will of the majority and the good of the group. Buying into that good and will is part of the price of the protection you get for being part of the "tribe". If you believe that "robs" you of your individualism then perhaps the group is not for you. There is nothing wrong with that. One has to be willing to give up the benefits of being part of the group however to travel down that path.

Are you sure you don't want your cake............and part of mine too?

I don't feel that I have lost my individualism even though I believe in my country and political system.
 
We're talking about tribalism, the last speedbump in our evolution. Patriotism is like the cultural equivalent of our vestigial tail.
 
Worthy of note that, in those selecting "Yes" in the poll, indicating love of country, respect for the Obama government is low, while the converse is generally true for those selecting "No." They love the destroyer and the destruction.

Certainly we are watching our once beautiful America die as the dark cloud of rampant, shrieking Liberal rage and hatred suffocates our culture of freedom.

In direct opposition to the statements of the OP, the truly foolish are those who think that, in the end game, they will retain their freedoms, individuality and ability to be "different" without the traditional America that they hate so much and that so many good men died to create and preserve. Their gloating is childlike in its naivety.
 
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The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.

Nationalism/patriotism is a good thing.A politician who is piece of **** globalist will sell your nation's sovereignty down the toilet while a politician who is a nationalist/patriotic will defend your country's sovereignty.

Nationalism | Define Nationalism at Dictionary.com

1.
spirit or aspirations common to the whole of a nation.
2.
devotion and loyalty to one's own country; patriotism.
3.
excessive patriotism; chauvinism.
4.
the desire for national advancement or political independence.
5.
the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.
 
There is a difference between nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism all in all is bad however. Patriotism isnt always bad.
 
Patriotism is good. It means to care for your village/town/city an local community. After all "pat(d)re" means "father".
Nationalism is good as long as your homeland is not an empire and you are defensive.
Nationalism is bad if your nation is an empire, offensive criminal, trying to conquer other lands and people.
 
It's good -- well, can be. But this can depend on what it's rooted in. In America, for example, people's patriotism is rooted in this nation's ideals, feats, history, etc. It has little to do with who is sitting in the Oval Office or in the most recent Congressional hearing. There are many that dislike, mistrust, or even hate the government but love America. That's just how patriotism in the US works. It can drive people to accomplish great things and live to a certain higher set of values (big example is the Space Race with the Soviets decades ago). However, ultranationalism can compel people to unjust causes and viewpoints, but that can go for many things. Too much of anything can be a bad thing.

Not to mention, ethnocentrism is a problem you should always be wary of.

Why is our military "da bomb?"
It's those badass jets and super carriers, man.

I guess attacking other countries in offensive wars makes us the bomb?

Technically.....
 
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The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.
Lest we forget :
United we stand, divided we fall.
We do seem to be divided......we have yet to fall....
Also..........................
Blind nationalism is not so hot...(Germany 30s,40s)
Lets keep our eyes open and the blinders off.
I voted "other" .
 
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