View Poll Results: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

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Thread: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

  1. #11
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    Re: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    You think one is good and the other bad? They kind of go hand-in-hand in my opinion but go ahead and expound if you wish.
    I would view nationalism (which imbues in its' adherent a belief in the inherent inferiority of the other) as a negative, and patriotism (which imbues in its' adherent instead an appreciation for the fine things that generations before have bequeathed him) as a positive.

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    Re: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Any soldier who puts his life on the line and doesn't even get paid well for it is a sucker, in my opinion.
    Reminds me of my John Stuart Mill.

    You ever see these politicians sending their own kids out to the front lines? Not gonna happen.
    So, of course, you voted for John McCain, whose son at the time was a Lance Corporal in the Marine Corps Infantry?

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    Re: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    In terms of power and flexibility, none other comes close.
    Yeah, that's true enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    This view surprises me, given your self labelled lean. I can perfectly well understand the motivations of a soldier and while you may characterize them as fools, most of them would do what they do for you (and for them too) anyway, I am sure.
    That's the company line. Not sure I buy it. Most of them are just dumb kids who don't know any better so they sign up. When the bullets are flying, I doubt they give a damn about you or me, they just want to get home.

    It's old politicians sending naive pseudo-children off to war while keeping their own kids safe at Harvard, then we cry our crocodile tears and thank them for their service. If you really care about those kids don't send them to an Arab land to die. The oil ain't worth it.


    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I agree with this with very few exceptions, such as Ron Paul or Elizabeth Warren.
    Yeah, there's always an exception. Too bad Ron Paul is bat**** crazy. I guarantee if you ran an IQ test on Ron Paul he'd test off the charts. Genius that is. But he's bat**** crazy.

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    Re: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


    Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


    My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.
    I never had much use for either, myself, though I don't at all begrudge someone else's desire to feel patriotic and even nationalistic about their country.

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    Re: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

    I see jingoism as bad, but not necessarily nationalism or patriotism.

    Worse than jingoism to me are the attitudes that are so morally relativistic and reactive as to represent it's near opposite. If people cannot see that Western liberalism IS better than some of the knuckle-dragging backwardness that passes for culture in much of the world, they are even worse than the "America, love it or leave it" types.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Yeah why is that? I disagree, but I have yet to hear a good argument FOR nationalism so I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.
    Nationalism is a broad concept. While people tend to think of oppressive regimes and international instability, it is also a stabilizing force and a force for self-determination. Without nationalism, it becomes immensely difficult for groups around the world to see themselves as being able to (or justified in) self-rule. When rule is established, nationalism continues its stabilizing presence, though it too can descend into exaggeration. Nevertheless, the notion that one group finds themselves unique or modestly to moderately superior is hardly in of itself a bad thing. Rather, it is quite common and can even be good.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

    However righteous are one's intentions, such as xenophobia, misplaced confidence and lethal apathy are but a step away. I don't require any national identity to embrace higher ideals. No one country's greater or worse than any other, in my view. Especially if we're conceding potentialities. A country's greatness is defined by the vision and attitude of its people. Not its momentary influence or material resources.

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    Re: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Yeah, that's true enough.

    That's the company line. Not sure I buy it. Most of them are just dumb kids who don't know any better so they sign up. When the bullets are flying, I doubt they give a damn about you or me, they just want to get home.

    It's old politicians sending naive pseudo-children off to war while keeping their own kids safe at Harvard, then we cry our crocodile tears and thank them for their service. If you really care about those kids don't send them to an Arab land to die. The oil ain't worth it.
    interesting point

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Yeah, there's always an exception. Too bad Ron Paul is bat**** crazy. I guarantee if you ran an IQ test on Ron Paul he'd test off the charts. Genius that is. But he's bat**** crazy.
    I agree he is crazy, but I also think he is sincere.

  9. #19
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    Re: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    The question is whether you feel nationalism and patriotism are good for humanity or if they are bad.


    Here's a working definition for both: Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. Nationalism involves national identity, by contrast with the related construct of patriotism, which involves the social conditioning and personal behaviors that support a state's decisions and actions.


    My opinion: neither serves any purpose except to rob us of the individualism that makes us unique human beings.
    Patriotism and individuality aren't mutually exclusive. Patriotism is essentially the same concept as family and community, on a grand scale, and doesn't imply that one supports everything that one's nation does, which results from government action. I consider myself patriotic, although I don't support our having gone to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I consider myself devoted to family and friends, although I don't agree with everything they do at all times.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  10. #20
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    Re: Are nationalism/patriotism good or bad?

    There's nothing wrong with patriotism and nationalism is small to moderate doses. As with anything, extremes are usually fraught with problems and negative actions.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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