View Poll Results: After reading the opening post:

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  • I can support the proposed resolution as written.

    5 17.86%
  • I can support most of the proposed resolution as written.

    6 21.43%
  • I can't support much of the proposed resolution as written.

    10 35.71%
  • I can't support any of the propose resolution as written.

    4 14.29%
  • This is the worst idea any nutter has come up with yet.

    2 7.14%
  • Other and I will explain in my post

    1 3.57%
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Thread: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

  1. #51
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    The fact that it's a right wing fantasy to eliminate entitlements and throw everything back to the states. Nonstarter.

    Cutting gerrymandering off at the knees would do a lot of good. There is nothing hyperpartisan about pointing that out.
    Maybe it is a right wing fantasy, but no more than believing that a federal government that increasingly controls every aspect of our lives and swallows up a full 25% of the nation's resources is less than a threat to our liberties and potential than is gerrymandering voting districts.

    I argue concepts. The OP is a concept I believe to be worthy of looking at for whatever positives can be found in it or for the sane, rational, educated people to explain why a component of it is not feasible. Unfortunately, so far it seems to be those on the right who have the ability to do that. I hope some on the left will prove me wrong about that.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #52
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    If the responsibility for social programs is transferred to the states, where the Founders intended those programs be all the time, the federal mandates would be eliminated. And there is no such thing as an 'unfunded' mandate. Everything gets funded if even on paper. What we would do is to eliminate the federal government's power to mandate that the states provide goods or services to anybody. And neither would the federal government have power to forbid the states to provide goods or services to anybody.

    It is utterly ridiculous for the federal government to take our money, siphon off a huge percentage of it to feed the enormous and ever growing bureaucracy in Washington, and then send whatever is left to the states to fund something the federal government says they have to fund.

    I would remind the participants on the thread, that there is nothing in the OP that forbids the federal government from initiating any voluntary program of any kind regarding research, federal insurance programs, national relief or whatever. The resolution would simply eliminate the federal government's power to confiscate resources from the people to do things that the federal government does not have to do.

    And those of you who want to make this a thread about racism or sexism or any other -isms that have ever existed in this country or that exists now, I would really appreciate you taking that to another thread as this one has absolutely zero to do with any of that. This is a thread about power and authority and who should have it now, right now, in 2014 in America.
    In large part I agree with you. Look at what we're talking about here though. Look at the Federal food stamp program. We just can't hand it to the states because the states can't afford it. So then the Feds have to subsidize a state program and the whole deal stays convoluted. All I'm saying that fixing the problems we've created isn't as easy as flipping a switch. It took us decades to screw things up and now change will have to happen slowly.

    If the amendment were taken is small steps, I would be in total agreement.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  3. #53
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    In large part I agree with you. Look at what we're talking about here though. Look at the Federal food stamp program. We just can't hand it to the states because the states can't afford it. So then the Feds have to subsidize a state program and the whole deal stays convoluted. All I'm saying that fixing the problems we've created isn't as easy as flipping a switch. It took us decades to screw things up and now change will have to happen slowly.

    If the amendment were taken is small steps, I would be in total agreement.
    If the states can't afford it, then nobody can because all the money comes out of the same pockets. There will be a lot more of it available if the federal government isn't swallowing up a whole bunch of it just to feed a bloated monstrosity of an ever growing bureaucracy.

    But you're right that the federal government has made millions dependent on government and will have to unravel that carefully. Which is why No. 2 of the proposed resolution was specific that:

    "2. As quickly as it can be done without breaking faith with those made dependent on the programs, all existing federal entitlement programs will be transferred to the states who will administer them or disband them as the people of those states see fit."
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #54
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Ancient Greece democracy foresaw that after 4 years of democratically elected leader a dictator should follow. The dictator would keep power for 4 years and cleanse the government from the corrupt that the OP speaks of with an iron grip.

    But after 4 years he should be killed and another democratically elected leader should replace the dictator. This then rotates and since leader death is involved it cannot be staged nor controlled. It assures real democracy and true communication.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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  5. #55
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Ancient Greece democracy foresaw that after 4 years of democratically elected leader a dictator should follow. The dictator would keep power for 4 years and cleanse the government from the corrupt that the OP speaks of with an iron grip.

    But after 4 years he should be killed and another democratically elected leader should replace the dictator. This then rotates and since leader death is involved it cannot be staged nor controlled. It assures real democracy and true communication.
    The upside of this would seem to be the sudden dearth of hopeful dictators, which can't be all bad!

    Greetings, DDD.

  6. #56
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    If the states can't afford it, then nobody can because all the money comes out of the same pockets. There will be a lot more of it available if the federal government isn't swallowing up a whole bunch of it just to feed a bloated monstrosity of an ever growing bureaucracy.

    But you're right that the federal government has made millions dependent on government and will have to unravel that carefully. Which is why No. 2 of the proposed resolution was specific that:

    "2. As quickly as it can be done without breaking faith with those made dependent on the programs, all existing federal entitlement programs will be transferred to the states who will administer them or disband them as the people of those states see fit."
    Again, good points. You will never sell the good points though if programs like government cheese suddenly disappear and people go running out on the streets claiming they are hungry and it's the government's fault. Here's why the plan is Federalized. The need for food stamps as an example is going to be greater in Mississippi than it is in Connecticut. Mississippi is more low wage, more agricultural. Connecticut has a bunch of people who work in Manhattan and don't want to live in NYC. Just like insurance spreads the risk, the feds spread the cheese, in more ways than one.

    This whole situation is too complicated to solve in a few sentences, although, again I agree with you in principle.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  7. #57
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    No one said it was. Please understand my argument in its entirety. You seem to just be picking out certain parts to respond to and ignoring/forgetting the argument as a whole.
    Actually that was precisely your argument - that the ideal of limited government as enshrined in the original intent of our Constitution was invalidated because of the limited extent of the vote. If I may quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl
    WHEREAS the United States was conceived as a government of the people, by the people, and for the people; and
    Nostalgia is fun. Brainwashing is fun.

    The United States was conceived as "a government of the people, by the people and for the people"...as long as the people were white, land-owning Christian men. Everyone else...not so much.
    If you now wish to amend that argument, you are free to do so. But let us not go around pretending that you did not start from it.

    *sigh*

    See above and then get back to me about lazy and inaccurate arguments.
    your counter to me demonstrating that your argument was lazy and inaccurate was to reply with "see above"?

    See above for my pre-rebuttal of this lazy response

    False. We had states which legally held one race was inferior to another and the inferior race was not even human at all, but property of another.

    There's no more control any government could exercise over its people than the slavery of them.
    False argument and implication - firstly, no government ever held that blacks were not human, and secondly the Federal Government enforced slavery just as much as the slave states did.

    Probably, considering the light bulb wasn't even invented in the 18th century and not available in most homes throughout most (if not all) of the 19th.
    then the equivalent thereof - the fact remains that the federal government has expanded far beyond the reach of the total sum of government in the late 18th and early 19th century.

    No, it's not.
    Oh, a he-said-she-said? Okay. Yes it is. :-)

    Of course they have. States are regularly attempting to deny its citizens basic and fundamental rights, even today.
    and are no more or less likely to than the federal government.

    How many states are passing Voter ID laws to prevent voter fraud which does not exist?
    A) voter fraud does exist
    B) Voter ID is not removing anyone's rights. The government already demands that you provide proof of identity in order to access portions of government particular to you - voting is no different.

    North Carolina recently added to their constitution an amendment prohibiting gays to marry (while still legally allowing first cousins to do so).
    which is well within their rights, just as it has always been.

    Texas is pushing hard to remove the theory of evolution from the classroom in favor of creationism.
    which is equally not an imposition on anyone's rights.

    you appear to have "doing things I disapprove of" confused with "abusing people's rights".

    States have not and are not using the power fairly.
    Of course they aren't. Neither is the Federal Government. The main difference being that State governments are more immediately accountable to the people whom they may abuse, whereas the Federal Government is less so.

    Combine that with the shrinking world in which we live and the federal government needs more power to make sure all citizens are treated equally and standards exist across all the states.
    yeah. Because if there is one entity we can trust with unchecked power, it's the one that's least accountable. That'll work great.

    Nonsense. We centralized government functions because we needed to and technology permitted it. You don't seem to understand the difference in the world today and the world of the late 1700s. You don't seem to appreciate the fact we can now use an airplane to travel across the ocean in only a few hours, a trip which once took weeks. You don't seem to appreciate we have technology to deliver missiles anywhere in the world at any time, as opposed to the muskets and bayonets used during the late 1700s. We can strike in unmanned aircraft, I can converse in real time with someone from Japan or Italy (at the same time even) and then can drive 10 miles up the road, have lunch, drive back and be back home in a little over an hour. I can travel from Missouri to North Carolina in 13 hours, instead of the weeks it once took. Technology has fundamentally changed the world and the people of the states are no longer self-contained, at least not to the degree they once were. A centralized government is increasingly necessary to handle the realities of today's world.
    Oh wow. You're so cosmopolitan. You can talk to someone in Japan? Oh man. You must have used a really big megaphone.



    I lived in Japan for three years. I have traveled (even by using those giant, magic, flying, hollowed-out birds) across portions of five continents, video-teleconferenced in real time literally across the globe in order to plan the years-out sync of satellite, plane, hardware, and the physical and information effects of both kinetic and non-kinetic energy, and dealt with enabling civil society across the full spectrum of development - from the challenge of getting clean water to dealing with disaster when nuclear plants begin to spew radiation and threaten to go into meltdown. Between the two of us, I'm betting that I'm the only one that has ever actually launched, controlled, and then recovered military UAVs. But please, tell me more about how you drove 10 miles for lunch, and how that experience demonstrated for you that need v want is what drove the historical expansion of the Federal Government. I can't wait to hear how driving between North Carolina and Missouri invalidates the history of the Progressive Era.

    Are there things which would be better suited for the state and local governments? Absolutely. But those who lament the fact our federal government has increasingly taken on more responsibilities don't seem to appreciate the fact there's really no other way if we want to continue to develop as a nation and stay a leader of the world.
    There is a sharp distinction between taking on more and taking on as much as it has. For example, we need a standing Navy, and the Federal Government is the only one that can really provide that. We need some form of the EPA to ensure that states do not dump on each other, and the Federal Government is the proper home for that. But we do not require the Federal Government to ensure that we use politically correct lightbulbs, shower-heads, and toilets. Modern society does not require that the Federal government reach as it has, or do most of what it does.

  8. #58
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    You can try to work towards such goals but realistically have to understand that they're too purest and will never happen suddenly or completely. The corporate structure and government system are too large and ingrained to be so idealistically changed.

    Though I support the ideas and direction, it would have to be amended and compromised quite a bit before becoming a possibility and likely will never even be a probability.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  9. #59
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Ancient Greece democracy foresaw that after 4 years of democratically elected leader a dictator should follow. The dictator would keep power for 4 years and cleanse the government from the corrupt that the OP speaks of with an iron grip.

    But after 4 years he should be killed and another democratically elected leader should replace the dictator. This then rotates and since leader death is involved it cannot be staged nor controlled. It assures real democracy and true communication.
    LOL. I have often wished I could be appointed benevolent dictator with absolute authority to run the government for a limited period before returning a 'fixed government' to the elected leaders. And what I would focus on would be to implement those concepts in the OP as much as could reasonably be done.

    Not crazy about the being killed after four years part though. Makes you wonder how many really balanced and competent people would consent to be appointed dictator. But that's probably why they discontinued that policy.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  10. #60
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    You can try to work towards such goals but realistically have to understand that they're too purest and will never happen suddenly or completely. The corporate structure and government system are too large and ingrained to be so idealistically changed.

    Though I support the ideas and direction, it would have to be amended and compromised quite a bit before becoming a possibility and likely will never even be a probability.
    It is intended as a concept. A starting place. I do not in my wildest imagination consider myself smarter or more competent than our Founding Fathers and it took them eleven years of debate, discussion, argument of all sides of every issue, give and take, and compromise before arriving at a concept that everybody could live with. And, even though the Constitution they gave us would need amendment and adjustment here and there--issues of sexism and racism, etc. were all worked out over time--it worked very well for more than a hundred years. And it produced the most vibrant, productive, free, innovative, prosperous, and benevolent society the world had ever seen or has ever seen to this day.

    It was turned on its head, however, when Theodore Roosevelt declared that the government could do anything that the Constitution did not expressly FORBID. And he packed the courts with like minded judges who would not challenge him on that. It was a complete reversal of the concept held by all previous elected leaders that the federal government could do only what the Constitution ALLOWED. The change started a small snowball rolling that shifts more and more control and power to the federal government. That snowball has been gathering momentum, size and mass ever since until it now threatens to flatten everything the USA was intended to be.

    The resolution in the OP addresses that and is intended to restore the original basis of a people who have their rights secured and then govern themselves.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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