View Poll Results: After reading the opening post:

Voters
28. You may not vote on this poll
  • I can support the proposed resolution as written.

    5 17.86%
  • I can support most of the proposed resolution as written.

    6 21.43%
  • I can't support much of the proposed resolution as written.

    10 35.71%
  • I can't support any of the propose resolution as written.

    4 14.29%
  • This is the worst idea any nutter has come up with yet.

    2 7.14%
  • Other and I will explain in my post

    1 3.57%
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Thread: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

  1. #41
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sort of - the State was certainly more powerful, but it did not exercise anything close to the level of imposition that the federal government today aspires to. Any state legislator in the 18th or early 19th century suggesting the equivalent of mandating particular kinds of lightbulbs inside of people's own homes would have been laughed off the floor if he was serious and perhaps mobbed if he persisted. In fact, the accusation that the Constitution might allow government to do such a thing was one of the most salient points raised by the anti-Federalists, resulting in its denunciation by the authors and defenders of that document.



    That is inaccurate in it's depiction of causality. The states have proven no less able to use power fairly (if anything, the opposite) than the Federal government. We began to heavily centralize governing functions because of an ideological predisposition that became common in the early 20th century to see the whole of human-kind as a kind of factory-like system; operating best with centralized direction, optimum efficiency, and depressed non-compliance.
    however, states that want to stick an ultrasound probe up my vagina are not imposing on me?

    states are doing plenty of things to their citizens. Thank goodness the federal govt can overrule them, as can the federal courts.

  2. #42
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary; universal suffrage is not required for representative government.
    No one said it was. Please understand my argument in its entirety. You seem to just be picking out certain parts to respond to and ignoring/forgetting the argument as a whole.

    You are attempting to criticize someone making a constitutional point about the size and scope of government by making a strawman argument about the franchise. It is a lazy and inaccurate argument.
    *sigh*

    See above and then get back to me about lazy and inaccurate arguments.

    Sort of - the State was certainly more powerful, but it did not exercise anything close to the level of imposition that the federal government today aspires to.
    False. We had states which legally held one race was inferior to another and the inferior race was not even human at all, but property of another.

    There's no more control any government could exercise over its people than the slavery of them.

    Any state legislator in the 18th or early 19th century suggesting the equivalent of mandating particular kinds of lightbulbs inside of people's own homes would have been laughed off the floor if he was serious
    Probably, considering the light bulb wasn't even invented in the 18th century and not available in most homes throughout most (if not all) of the 19th.

    But one only has to google "ridiculous state laws" to know silly and controlling laws have always been around. I like "Odd Florida Law: It used to be illegal to not wear clothes while taking a bath in a bathtub."

    That is inaccurate in it's depiction of causality.
    No, it's not.

    The states have proven no less able to use power fairly (if anything, the opposite) than the Federal government.
    Of course they have. States are regularly attempting to deny its citizens basic and fundamental rights, even today. How many states are passing Voter ID laws to prevent voter fraud which does not exist? North Carolina recently added to their constitution an amendment prohibiting gays to marry (while still legally allowing first cousins to do so). Texas is pushing hard to remove the theory of evolution from the classroom in favor of creationism.

    States have not and are not using the power fairly. Combine that with the shrinking world in which we live and the federal government needs more power to make sure all citizens are treated equally and standards exist across all the states.

    We began to heavily centralize governing functions because of an ideological predisposition


    Nonsense. We centralized government functions because we needed to and technology permitted it. You don't seem to understand the difference in the world today and the world of the late 1700s. You don't seem to appreciate the fact we can now use an airplane to travel across the ocean in only a few hours, a trip which once took weeks. You don't seem to appreciate we have technology to deliver missiles anywhere in the world at any time, as opposed to the muskets and bayonets used during the late 1700s. We can strike in unmanned aircraft, I can converse in real time with someone from Japan or Italy (at the same time even) and then can drive 10 miles up the road, have lunch, drive back and be back home in a little over an hour. I can travel from Missouri to North Carolina in 13 hours, instead of the weeks it once took. Technology has fundamentally changed the world and the people of the states are no longer self-contained, at least not to the degree they once were. A centralized government is increasingly necessary to handle the realities of today's world.

    Are there things which would be better suited for the state and local governments? Absolutely. But those who lament the fact our federal government has increasingly taken on more responsibilities don't seem to appreciate the fact there's really no other way if we want to continue to develop as a nation and stay a leader of the world.

  3. #43
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    The goals of the proposal are good. The devil is in the details. Looks to me as if the states could be facing unfunded mandates but the rest of it would be a refreshing change.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  4. #44
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Slyfox696 - post 42 - well said! thanks!

  5. #45
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    however, states that want to stick an ultrasound probe up my vagina are not imposing on me?

    states are doing plenty of things to their citizens. Thank goodness the federal govt can overrule them, as can the federal courts.
    These would be the same federal courts who wanted to stick not an ultrasound, but surgical equipment up into your vagina, in order to forcibly sterilize you against your will, on the basis that you might prove genetically unifit? Oh yes, they sound very much like the cavalry coming over the hill to save us from ourselves

  6. #46
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    The goals of the proposal are good. The devil is in the details. Looks to me as if the states could be facing unfunded mandates but the rest of it would be a refreshing change.
    If the responsibility for social programs is transferred to the states, where the Founders intended those programs be all the time, the federal mandates would be eliminated. And there is no such thing as an 'unfunded' mandate. Everything gets funded if even on paper. What we would do is to eliminate the federal government's power to mandate that the states provide goods or services to anybody. And neither would the federal government have power to forbid the states to provide goods or services to anybody.

    It is utterly ridiculous for the federal government to take our money, siphon off a huge percentage of it to feed the enormous and ever growing bureaucracy in Washington, and then send whatever is left to the states to fund something the federal government says they have to fund.

    I would remind the participants on the thread, that there is nothing in the OP that forbids the federal government from initiating any voluntary program of any kind regarding research, federal insurance programs, national relief or whatever. The resolution would simply eliminate the federal government's power to confiscate resources from the people to do things that the federal government does not have to do.

    And those of you who want to make this a thread about racism or sexism or any other -isms that have ever existed in this country or that exists now, I would really appreciate you taking that to another thread as this one has absolutely zero to do with any of that. This is a thread about power and authority and who should have it now, right now, in 2014 in America.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #47
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    If the responsibility for social programs is transferred to the states, where the Founders intended those programs be all the time, the federal mandates would be eliminated. And there is no such thing as an 'unfunded' mandate. Everything gets funded if even on paper. What we would do is to eliminate the federal government's power to mandate that the states provide goods or services to anybody. And neither would the federal government have power to forbid the states to provide goods or services to anybody.

    It is utterly ridiculous for the federal government to take our money, siphon off a huge percentage of it to feed the enormous and ever growing bureaucracy in Washington, and then send whatever is left to the states to fund something the federal government says they have to fund.

    I would remind the participants on the thread, that there is nothing in the OP that forbids the federal government from initiating any voluntary program of any kind regarding research, federal insurance programs, national relief or whatever. The resolution would simply eliminate the federal government's power to confiscate resources from the people to do things that the federal government does not have to do.

    And those of you who want to make this a thread about racism or sexism or any other -isms that have ever existed in this country or that exists now, I would really appreciate you taking that to another thread as this one has absolutely zero to do with any of that. This is a thread about power and authority and who should have it now, right now, in 2014 in America.
    Excellent post!

    Greetings, AlbqOwl.

  8. #48
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government
    WHEREAS the proposal in the OP is a hyperpartisan fantasy,

    Resolved :

    1. End gerrymandering nationwide, and draw new districts electronically using only population density statistics generated by the census.

    2. Relax laws that are designed to keep independents off of the ballot.

    3. Strengthen lobbying rules.

    Conclusion :

    that'll help a bit.

  9. #49
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    WHEREAS the proposal in the OP is a hyperpartisan fantasy,

    Resolved :

    1. End gerrymandering nationwide, and draw new districts electronically using only population density statistics generated by the census.

    2. Relax laws that are designed to keep independents off of the ballot.

    3. Strengthen lobbying rules.

    Conclusion :

    that'll help a bit.
    The OP would render lobbying, gerrymandering, and rigging the vote moot at the national level, because nobody would be able to profit from that.

    So if your proposals are not hyperpartisan fantasy, what makes the OP a hyperpartisan fantasy?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  10. #50
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    The OP would render lobbying, gerrymandering, and rigging the vote moot at the national level, because nobody would be able to profit from that.

    So if your proposals are not hyperpartisan fantasy, what makes the OP a hyperpartisan fantasy?
    The fact that it's a right wing fantasy to eliminate entitlements and throw everything back to the states. Nonstarter.

    Cutting gerrymandering off at the knees would do a lot of good. There is nothing hyperpartisan about pointing that out.

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