View Poll Results: After reading the opening post:

Voters
28. You may not vote on this poll
  • I can support the proposed resolution as written.

    5 17.86%
  • I can support most of the proposed resolution as written.

    6 21.43%
  • I can't support much of the proposed resolution as written.

    10 35.71%
  • I can't support any of the propose resolution as written.

    4 14.29%
  • This is the worst idea any nutter has come up with yet.

    2 7.14%
  • Other and I will explain in my post

    1 3.57%
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Thread: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

  1. #31
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    and they REALLY INTENDED white male property owners to run the country.... they did not like the popular vote.

    But as Verax said
    No. They intended for a divided people to come together as one cohesive nation. It took them eleven long years of debate, argument, discussion, give and take, and compromise to achieve that after the signing of the Declaration of Independence. But they got it done, plus they provided a means to amend the Constitution as the need would arise.

    On the supposedly undemocratic electorate: Far from excluding the poor, the electorate in the founding era was the most democratic of any large nation in history. It included about 85 to 90 percent of free males. Those Founders who defended a property requirement for voting did so, not in opposition to, but on the basis of, the equality principle of the Declaration of Independence. They feared—as we will see, not without reason—that the propertyless poor might become the tools of influential and wealthy demagogues, distorting election results and endangering the survival of liberty. They changed their minds on this point as it became increasingly clear that the poor were not opponents but friends of the rights of mankind, including the right to acquire and possess property.--Thomas G. West (who has researched and written extensively on the motives and conclusions reached by the Founding Fathers.)
    Vindicating the Founders: Read the Preface
    But most importantly they want all social issues to be decided by the people within the various states. They intended the federal government to be strong enough to defend our rights and allow us to function as one nation, but to leave the governing of the people to the people. The OP, in whole, addresses that concept.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #32
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    If you want to get corruption out of federal politics, well most of it, you will never get it all out, the best way to do so would be to get rid of corporate personhood, put some strong restrictions on lobbying, and reform campaign financing. If you remove the ability of corporations, interest groups and unions to buy politicians, then you will take a lot of the corruption out of Washington.
    But to do that we have to restrict the liberty of people to support who they want for whatever reason. The OP provides a means of achieving campaign finance reform without taking away a single right or liberty from anybody.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #33
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    But to do that we have to restrict the liberty of people to support who they want for whatever reason. The OP provides a means of achieving campaign finance reform without taking away a single right or liberty from anybody.
    If only it were that simple. Governments exist for a reason. The services required out of a government today are different than what they were 200 years ago. For example, 200 years ago there was no concept of environmental protection, public health policy was in its infancy, the technologies available today and the reach of them was inconceivable, security is different today, wars are fought completely differently. As a result, governments over time have adapted to these changes.

    We will always need strong environmental protection.

    We will always need public health policies.

    We will always need some form of Medicare. The reason why we have it is that seniors are uninsurable in the private sector.

    We will always need some form of federal flood insurance.

    We will always need federal monetary policy.

    We will always need some form of market oversight at the federal level.

    We will always need federal funded basic research.

    We will always need a CDC.

    You can't just take all of this out of the government simply because the founding fathers did not conceive of it. In fact, I cannot imagine that they would want a government that was that nonadaptable to changes in the world.

    So the fact is, like it or not we are going to need more of a government than you are proposing and we cant just delegate it all to some confederacy of states. Thus there will always be the potential for corruption. If you want less corruption and a more effective government then elect more centrists and moderates and put some limits on campaign financing and lobbying. If you look at the least corrupt governments around the world, that is how they do it.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 01-20-14 at 05:14 PM.
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  4. #34
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Nostalgia is fun. Brainwashing is fun.

    The United States was conceived as "a government of the people, by the people and for the people"...as long as the people were white, land-owning Christian men. Everyone else...not so much.
    Actually that easy toss-off itself is false history - brainwashing, if you will. The states were left to their own devices to distribute the franchise, and non-land owners, non-Christians, and non-whites voted.
    Last edited by cpwill; 01-20-14 at 05:17 PM.

  5. #35
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Well you're entitled to your interpretation of my intent. I'm entitled to my interpretation of my intent. And if you want to argue that component of it, that has no place in the OP, I suggest you start a thread on it and invite me over.
    I'm not arguing your intent so much as I'm arguing against your nostalgic believe of what never was. Your entire premise is that America has lost its way from its beginnings, and its beginnings were something to restore. I'm pointing out how Americas beginnings were far from something we wish to restore.

    Instead of "returning to Constitutional roots", I'd much rather continue advancing towards the idea of equality for all under the law. To me, that's a much more noble pursuit than some misguided belief things were better at the beginning.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Actually that easy toss-off itself is false history - brainwashing, if you will.
    It's neither, it was the quick response to show the ridiculousness of the opening sentiment.
    The states were left to their own devices to distribute the franchise, and non-land owners, non-Christians, and non-whites voted.
    Except in the states where they couldn't.

    Eligibility to vote for representatives would be based on each state's rules for voting on the state legislature's lower house. For example, the 1777 New York State Constitution required that a man have considerable wealth to be able to vote for the state Assembly - he had to pay taxes as well as own property worth at least 20 pounds or pay an annual rent of 2 pounds. Ten of the original 13 states had property and/or tax requirements when the U.S. Constitution came into effect.

    http://www1.cuny.edu/portal_ur/content/voting_cal/the_constitution.html
    Last edited by Slyfox696; 01-20-14 at 05:16 PM.

  6. #36
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    I'm not arguing your intent so much as I'm arguing against your nostalgic believe of what never was. Your entire premise is that America has lost its way from its beginnings, and its beginnings were something to restore. I'm pointing out how Americas beginnings were far from something we wish to restore.
    Then you are conflating unlike things - since Owl is not arguing that we should revitalize the ideal of racism (which didn't really grow up until the 19th century, anywho), but rather that we should revitalize the ideal of more limited government.

    For example, I could point out that your own leanings compared to my own are somewhat leftist, and that I therefore cannot support or compromise with you in any manner because I am wholeheartedly against the Purges and Gulag System as used under Stalin. You may think that things can be somewhat better if we move a bit back to the left ideologically, but you are not arguing for the Soviet Union.

  7. #37
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Then you are conflating unlike things - since Owl is not arguing that we should revitalize the ideal of racism (which didn't really grow up until the 19th century, anywho), but rather that we should revitalize the ideal of more limited government.
    They are not unlike things. She first started by saying it should be a government of, by and for the people and then said we should return to Constitutional roots which were most definitely not of, by and for. That was her entire premise and impetus for this thread.

    Furthermore, the idea of a "return to a more limited government" is not only impractical, in many ways it's simply false. For all the power the federal government didn't have, the states did (which is constantly overlooked by those waxing nostalgia about the past). And as time has changed and the states have shown an inability to use their power fairly, and as technology has continued shrinking our world, the federal government has taken on more and more responsibilities, because quite frankly, they have to.

  8. #38
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    And even if that was in the original Constitution, those issues have been dealt with and resolved in the centuries since then and the OP does not address or deal with those issues in any way other than how the existing government perpetuates them. The OP deals with a proposed fix for what ails our goverment now and a way to restore the Founders concept that no monarch, dictator, pope, despot, or other authoritarian government would have any power to dictate to the people how they must organize their societies and live their lives. Nor would it have any power to enrich itself at our expense.
    Perhaps the op should have been written better then. He doesn't want to go back to the "founders vision" he wants to go back to some made-up version of the founders vision that he has that matches up with what he wants.

  9. #39
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    They are not unlike things. She first started by saying it should be a government of, by and for the people and then said we should return to Constitutional roots which were most definitely not of, by and for. That was her entire premise and impetus for this thread.
    On the contrary; universal suffrage is not required for representative government. For example, we currently do not extend the vote to felons, non-citizens, or six year olds. The Constitutional roots she appears to be discussing are additionally not one of the franchise (none of her points deal with its' retraction), but rather the size and scope of government.

    You are attempting to criticize someone making a constitutional point about the size and scope of government by making a strawman argument about the franchise. It is a lazy and inaccurate argument.

    Furthermore, the idea of a "return to a more limited government" is not only impractical, in many ways it's simply false. For all the power the federal government didn't have, the states did (which is constantly overlooked by those waxing nostalgia about the past)
    Sort of - the State was certainly more powerful, but it did not exercise anything close to the level of imposition that the federal government today aspires to. Any state legislator in the 18th or early 19th century suggesting the equivalent of mandating particular kinds of lightbulbs inside of people's own homes would have been laughed off the floor if he was serious and perhaps mobbed if he persisted. In fact, the accusation that the Constitution might allow government to do such a thing was one of the most salient points raised by the anti-Federalists, resulting in its denunciation by the authors and defenders of that document.

    And as time has changed and the states have shown an inability to use their power fairly, and as technology has continued shrinking our world, the federal government has taken on more and more responsibilities, because quite frankly, they have to.
    That is inaccurate in it's depiction of causality. The states have proven no less able to use power fairly (if anything, the opposite) than the Federal government. We began to heavily centralize governing functions because of an ideological predisposition that became common in the early 20th century to see the whole of human-kind as a kind of factory-like system; operating best with centralized direction, optimum efficiency, and depressed non-compliance.

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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    All things are fixed by election reform, and reigning in lobbyism.

    None of the OP will happen without the above, but once the above happens, many, if not most of our problems would be fixed within 2 decades, at most.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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