View Poll Results: After reading the opening post:

Voters
28. You may not vote on this poll
  • I can support the proposed resolution as written.

    5 17.86%
  • I can support most of the proposed resolution as written.

    6 21.43%
  • I can't support much of the proposed resolution as written.

    10 35.71%
  • I can't support any of the propose resolution as written.

    4 14.29%
  • This is the worst idea any nutter has come up with yet.

    2 7.14%
  • Other and I will explain in my post

    1 3.57%
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Thread: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

  1. #11
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    I didn't say that. I said it's just as good, if not better, than ever before.
    I didn't interpret it, you explicitly said it:
    Well you're entitled to your interpretation of my intent. I'm entitled to my interpretation of my intent. And if you want to argue that component of it, that has no place in the OP, I suggest you start a thread on it and invite me over.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #12
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    But that should be the problem of the people in the various states. At least a big corporation based in New York wouldn't be able to coerce money from the people of New Mexico or Florida or Alaska who will never benefit from it.
    A corperations power can transcend state lines.
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  3. #13
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    A corperations power can transcend state lines.
    I am not concerned with corporate power in this resolution. I am concerned with corporations not being able to buy favors from elected officials or bureaucrats and thereby access our resources without us having any power to stop that. There is nothing in the OP that suggests Congress and the President will not have the same RICO and anti-trust laws to prevent illegal and unethical corporate practices, and with no ability to receive favors from those corporations, they would have a lot more incentive to enforce those laws.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #14
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Well you're entitled to your interpretation of my intent. I'm entitled to my interpretation of my intent. And if you want to argue that component of it, that has no place in the OP, I suggest you start a thread on it and invite me over.
    When you argue a return to the original constitution, which allowed slavery; and which only gave the vote to white, property owning men, what exactly did you THINK you were arguing? Did you not know the original constitution included those?

    It's so important to pick which version of the constitution you want. The one without the 14th amendment? how about the one WITH prohibition?

  5. #15
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    How so? Those powerful corporations would find no advantage to use government for its own purposes anymore. Any concessions or policies or contracts the federal government granted to General Electric would have to also be extended to the Mom & Pop store on Mainstreet America. Corporations would no longer be able to buy favors from anybody in the federal government.
    The corporations don't need the government, they have money and thus power without it. The only reason they bought the government was to try and restore the complete control they had prior to the government stepping in and raining on their parade. Look back at the mid to late 1800's and you'll see a perfect example of this. The government used to operate exactly how you desire. The large entities were all powerful and they abused the **** out of it. This was the birth of government intervention in business because it was obvious it was necessary.

    We don't need to kill government we need better government. If you want to fix these problems we have to unwind the bad stuff and keep the good stuff. Its a terribly complicated problem and the public doesn't understand it.

  6. #16
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    When you argue a return to the original constitution, which allowed slavery; and which only gave the vote to white, property owning men, what exactly did you THINK you were arguing? Did you not know the original constitution included those?

    It's so important to pick which version of the constitution you want. The one without the 14th amendment? how about the one WITH prohibition?
    Neither the 14th or 18th amendments were in the original constitution. Nor have I at any time suggested that we re-establish the original constitution without any of the amendments.

    I want to re-establish the original INTENT of the Founders for what sort of nation they wanted us to have.

    The Founders original INTENT with the constitution was a government of the people, for the people, and by the people. A government that would recognize and secure the unalienable rights of the people and then leave them alone to establish whatever sorts of societies they wished to have. They knew some would get that right, some would get that wrong, all would make mistakes and learn through trial and error, but the people within the various states would govern themselves. The federal government would not have the power to tell them how they had to do that.

    So now I would personally appreciate it if those participating in this thread would focus on the resolution and discuss that, pro or con. I don't ask anybody agree with me and that is not my expectation here. I do expect us not to derail this discussion into a separate topic that is probably being discussed quite competently elsewhere on the board.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #17
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Neither the 14th or 18th amendments were in the original constitution. Nor have I at any time suggested that we re-establish the original constitution without any of the amendments.

    I want to re-establish the original INTENT of the Founders for what sort of nation they wanted us to have.

    The Founders original INTENT with the constitution was a government of the people, for the people, and by the people. A government that would recognize and secure the unalienable rights of the people and then leave them alone to establish whatever sorts of societies they wished to have. They knew some would get that right, some would get that wrong, all would make mistakes and learn through trial and error, but the people within the various states would govern themselves. The federal government would not have the power to tell them how they had to do that.

    So now I would personally appreciate it if those participating in this thread would focus on the resolution and discuss that, pro or con. I don't ask anybody agree with me and that is not my expectation here. I do expect us not to derail this discussion into a separate topic that is probably being discussed quite competently elsewhere on the board.
    Are we free to debate what The founders intent was?
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    The corporations don't need the government, they have money and thus power without it. The only reason they bought the government was to try and restore the complete control they had prior to the government stepping in and raining on their parade. Look back at the mid to late 1800's and you'll see a perfect example of this. The government used to operate exactly how you desire. The large entities were all powerful and they abused the **** out of it. This was the birth of government intervention in business because it was obvious it was necessary.

    We don't need to kill government we need better government. If you want to fix these problems we have to unwind the bad stuff and keep the good stuff. Its a terribly complicated problem and the public doesn't understand it.
    So what bad stuff would you unwind that isn't included in the suggestions in the resolution in the OP? And do you think it is a good thing that the problem has become so complicated that the public doesn't understand it?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #19
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    Are we free to debate what The founders intent was?
    Sure. As long as it relates to their intent as reflected in the OP. They intended a lot of stuff and there was a lot more in the Founding documents than is addressed in the very narrowly focused OP.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  10. #20
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    Re: PROPOSAL to Fix a Broken United States Government

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    So what bad stuff would you unwind that isn't included in the suggestions in the resolution in the OP? And do you think it is a good thing that the problem has become so complicated that the public doesn't understand it?
    Well this is why I said I'm with you in spirit, it just isn't really practical. If we could fix our problems of corruption it probably wouldn't matter which way we went anyway as we would make it work in either direction. Its a massive argument and I'm not really ready to undertake it so I'll be on my way.

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