View Poll Results: where does the main issue lie?

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  • People are irresponsible, undisciplined, lazy, and/or some other moral failing

    10 41.67%
  • People are insufficiently educated to understand complex and long term needs

    11 45.83%
  • individual long term planning is simply against human nature and will never reasonably happen

    5 20.83%
  • There are factors we do not yet understand

    0 0%
  • these may seem like a failure of programs but are for the best for society

    0 0%
  • external factors we do understand play a role but were not originally planned for

    4 16.67%
  • something else (explain)

    4 16.67%
  • burrito rootabega

    5 20.83%
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Thread: adults and responsibility

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    adults and responsibility

    In today's complex society, do you feel that common failures we find in leaving outcomes up to the population to be a matter of insufficient discipline and moral behavior, insufficient education, misplaces expectations, or something else.

    I will build this poll with an example. In the 80s, we instituted the 401k program and now most people can't afford to retire. Another example is the expectation that people become more educated in order to compete for jobs, which the results have been less than optimal with a huge student loan debt issue and education inflation for jobs.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Unfortunately, since the 60s, we've liberalized the nation to such a degree that everyone has unreasonable expectations and a distinct lack of responsibility for their own lives. They expect someone else to solve all the problems and look to the government for freebies and handouts because they're too lazy to do it themselves.

    This is a massive, massive problem.
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    If I had to pick one I'd go with "misplaced expectations".

    Using your example of the 401(k), a lot of people don't take full advantage of the plan. That may be because they don't think they can afford the contributions or because they are leery of the ultimate benefit but both of those are, in my opinion, due to misplaced expectations. People figure that they "need" that extra $100/mo to pay their cable bill instead of saving for their retirement. They also don't understand that the funds in the 401(k) are invested in other stuff so they let it sit instead of looking for other options and opportunities.

    If you put $10k/yr into a 401(k) with a 2% employer match and an average rate of return of 4% you'll have well over half a million dollars in 30 years and that ain't chump change.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Unfortunately, since the 60s, we've liberalized the nation to such a degree that everyone has unreasonable expectations and a distinct lack of responsibility for their own lives. They expect someone else to solve all the problems and look to the government for freebies and handouts because they're too lazy to do it themselves.

    This is a massive, massive problem.
    What you describe isn't liberalization, it's some kind of sheep-like, groupthink passivity that's the antithesis of liberal. Liberals believe in personal freedoms and power over all considerations of group, government or good-for-the-country.
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    If I had to pick one I'd go with "misplaced expectations".

    Using your example of the 401(k), a lot of people don't take full advantage of the plan. That may be because they don't think they can afford the contributions or because they are leery of the ultimate benefit but both of those are, in my opinion, due to misplaced expectations. People figure that they "need" that extra $100/mo to pay their cable bill instead of saving for their retirement. They also don't understand that the funds in the 401(k) are invested in other stuff so they let it sit instead of looking for other options and opportunities.

    If you put $10k/yr into a 401(k) with a 2% employer match and an average rate of return of 4% you'll have well over half a million dollars in 30 years and that ain't chump change.
    that might fit under insufficient education, but then again, you can lead a horse to water ...

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Liberals believe in personal freedoms and power over all considerations of group, government or good-for-the-country.
    And you don't see how this could result in the very problems he described?

    Looking out for "number one" is all well and good, but there has to be some room in the equation for notions like "civic duty" and collective identity as well. By and large, our current society lacks this, precisely because of the amount of emphasis we put on "individualism" above all else.

    This has caused innumerable problems, and created a sense of unjustifiable entitlement among much of our population.

    After all, what's good for the individual isn't necessarily good for society in general. A lot of times, even what an individual thinks is good for themselves turns out to often be anything but on a long term basis.

    Most human beings are hardly what you could describe as being "wise" or "careful," in case you haven't noticed.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-20-14 at 02:00 PM.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    In today's complex society, do you feel that common failures we find in leaving outcomes up to the population to be a matter of insufficient discipline and moral behavior, insufficient education, misplaces expectations, or something else.

    I will build this poll with an example. In the 80s, we instituted the 401k program and now most people can't afford to retire. Another example is the expectation that people become more educated in order to compete for jobs, which the results have been less than optimal with a huge student loan debt issue and education inflation for jobs.
    Knowledge and education would be a step forward. Unfortunately, common sense is not a purchasable commodity.

    People have been inundated through the years with the idea that programs funded by the government will be there to catch you when you fall, or retire. Unfortunately, people didn't also learn that they were supposed to be supplemental programs, in addition to your own planning and saving.

    People started shirking the responsibility of planning for themselves, and started with the 'I deserve syndrome' of wanting material things right now, and lost sight of the fact they had to be paid for at some point. Certain systems put into place to help those who had sudden, overwhelming completely unforeseeable situations arise, became the norm in filing bankruptcy, and people still didn't learn.

    The government, IMO, has done nothing to actually educate people about financial matters, and instead throws a finger out there pointing to the corporate world as the monster under the bed, when in reality, it's the lack of knowledge and understanding that has driven most people further and further into the financial hole.

    It is individual responsibility that will eventually bring this country back into the realm of the Great Nations. Not government spending, not government handouts or programs. The individual, learning about being responsible for their own actions and welfare.
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    that might fit under insufficient education, but then again, you can lead a horse to water ...
    That's kind of what I'm saying. People's expectations of their 401(k) earnings is often unrealistic. They look at the results after a year and say "well, it's really not doing anything" and then they stop contributing. Under the scenario I put up after 10 years you'd only have a $20k gain so I can see the frustration but in 15 years it turns into a $50k gain and after 20 years it's a $100k gain. After 30 years you'd be close to doubling your contributions and that's at a rather modest rate of return.

    The expectation shouldn't be for an immediate benefit, it should be for a long term benefit.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    In today's complex society, do you feel that common failures we find in leaving outcomes up to the population to be a matter of insufficient discipline and moral behavior, insufficient education, misplaces expectations, or something else.

    I will build this poll with an example. In the 80s, we instituted the 401k program and now most people can't afford to retire. Another example is the expectation that people become more educated in order to compete for jobs, which the results have been less than optimal with a huge student loan debt issue and education inflation for jobs.
    A lot of the problem with people cashing out retirement plans today has to do with the age at which they entered. There are three levels of risk to any retirement plan and the age of the individual has a lot to do with accumulation, as does the back end structure of any retirement plan. The risk levels are low, moderate, and high(and they have similar growth potential in relationship to the risk). The basic idea is that a person who has more time can take less risk overall, a person closer to retirement needs to take more risk, and in either case inflation protection should be built into any retirement plan(which includes taking small bites of the account rather than a lump sum payout).

    Then there is tax deferred versus income based investment. A deferred plan is only taxed as income, so if a person leaves money into an account and draws a monthly or quarterly payout whatever is left will gain tax deferred until it then becomes income. My guess is that people hurting now were either not given good advice and did not take the appropriate risks, or they didn't put enough in, didn't take the plans, or, like what happened to a few of my family members, took a large hit during one of the two bubbles but because of their closeness to retirement couldn't build it back up.

    I don't think that it's "just" irresponsibility but I think that plays a role "somewhere", whether that was the financial planner or the retiree is hard to tell.
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    And you don't see how this could result in the very problems he described?

    Looking out for "number one" is all well and good, but there has to be some room in the equation for notions like "civic duty" and collective identity as well. By and large, our current society lacks this, precisely because of the amount of emphasis we put on "individualism" above all else.
    Don't get me wrong, I strongly advocate a sense of community. I believe that anyone who wants the benefits of society needs to make his contribution. I shiver a little bit, though, when I read phrases like 'collective identity'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    This has caused innumerable problems, and created a sense of unjustifiable entitlement among much of our population.

    After all, what's good for the individual isn't necessarily good for society in general. A lot of times, even what an individual thinks is good for themselves turns out to often be anything but on a long term basis.

    Most human beings are hardly what you could describe as being "wise" or "careful," in case you haven't noticed.
    I believe that no-one can tell me 'what's good for society'. That's a road that spirals into disaster. I believe that society is healthiest, the community strongest, when the rights of individuals come first. 'What's good for society' will naturally follow.
    Last edited by Grand Mal; 01-20-14 at 02:09 PM. Reason: grammar
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
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