View Poll Results: where does the main issue lie?

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24. You may not vote on this poll
  • People are irresponsible, undisciplined, lazy, and/or some other moral failing

    10 41.67%
  • People are insufficiently educated to understand complex and long term needs

    11 45.83%
  • individual long term planning is simply against human nature and will never reasonably happen

    5 20.83%
  • There are factors we do not yet understand

    0 0%
  • these may seem like a failure of programs but are for the best for society

    0 0%
  • external factors we do understand play a role but were not originally planned for

    4 16.67%
  • something else (explain)

    4 16.67%
  • burrito rootabega

    5 20.83%
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Thread: adults and responsibility

  1. #71
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Indeed. Unfortunately, many liberals are not out to stop people from acting incorrectly, or at least not in the best interest of all, they want people to stop thinking in a manner contrary to liberalism. This is quite clear when talking about gay marriage. Not only do they want gay marriage to be legal, they want people who oppose gay marriage to accept homosexuality as normal and natural and acceptable. It's not just about changing the laws and the culture, it's about stamping out thoughtcrime.
    Many liberals, yes, but I don't believe the majority of liberals believe that. The majority of outspoken liberals might. Ah, the impatience of youth. LoL!
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  2. #72
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    To be fair here, the attitudes he describes are quite applicable to modern "Liberals" when it comes to their views on social and moral matters. The modern Left is very much "anything goes" when it comes to traditionally "taboo" behaviors, with individualistically centered personal gratification being the only goal they view as being in any sense salient or worthy of consideration in pursuing them.

    i.e. "If it feels good, do it."

    I think this would be more generally indicative of "Libertinism" than "Libertarianism," however.

    What is being described are really statist

    Statist come in both socially liberal and socially conservative forms. Liberal statists generally want to influence food, gun and similar purchases. Conservative statists (US) tend to want to enforce religious based morality. Both want the government to put the policies in place and make law when possible
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  3. #73
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    If you were a liberal, you wouldn't identify yourself as "other" would you? You're welcome to think what you like about liberalism and identify yourself any way you like, but when it comes to people who actively self-identify as liberals, they don't think the way you do. Maybe it's you who is using the label incorrectly.
    No, I checked. Merriam-Webster's. I got it right.
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  4. #74
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Many liberals, yes, but I don't believe the majority of liberals believe that. The majority of outspoken liberals might. Ah, the impatience of youth. LoL!
    I think the majority of self-identified liberals believe it. Certainly that's the way the Democrat Party operates and it purports to represent liberals. Where's your evidence of this vast, mute liberal audience who thinks otherwise?
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  5. #75
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I think the majority of self-identified liberals believe it. Certainly that's the way the Democrat Party operates and it purports to represent liberals. Where's your evidence of this vast, mute liberal audience who thinks otherwise?
    Nothing but anecdotal evidence and a sense of recent (5 decade) history. My generation grew up with the "do your own thing" motto, which had the unspoken assumption that you didn't hurt people. That's a very ("classic") liberal stance. Some liberals have gone off the rails and taken it too far but I've seen no evidence that it's endemic.


    I have as yet to see the Dems insist on controlling people's thoughts - at least, any more than any other political organization. They push for anti-discrimination laws (or getting rid of discriminatory laws) but I've not seen much evidence of thought police.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-21-14 at 11:15 PM.
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  6. #76
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    In today's complex society, do you feel that common failures we find in leaving outcomes up to the population to be a matter of insufficient discipline and moral behavior, insufficient education, misplaces expectations, or something else.

    I will build this poll with an example. In the 80s, we instituted the 401k program and now most people can't afford to retire. Another example is the expectation that people become more educated in order to compete for jobs, which the results have been less than optimal with a huge student loan debt issue and education inflation for jobs.
    I'm not sure which adults we're talking about. They're a diverse bunch.

  7. #77
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Beginning with Ronald Reagan and continuing through the present, we have suffered from a complete failure of leadership. The greatest flaw was accepting the "service economy" as an alternative to a labor oriented productive economy. That is the something else that I chose. The battle between Management and Labor in the USA was won by management.

  8. #78
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Nothing but anecdotal evidence and a sense of recent (5 decade) history. My generation grew up with the "do your own thing" motto, which had the unspoken assumption that you didn't hurt people. That's a very ("classic") liberal stance. Some liberals have gone off the rails and taken it too far but I've seen no evidence that it's endemic.


    I have as yet to see the Dems insist on controlling people's thoughts - at least, any more than any other political organization. They push for anti-discrimination laws (or getting rid of discriminatory laws) but I've not seen much evidence of thought police.
    They like to take other people's money.
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    What you describe isn't liberalization, it's some kind of sheep-like, groupthink passivity that's the antithesis of liberal. Liberals believe in personal freedoms and power over all considerations of group, government or good-for-the-country.
    At one time that was the definition, but no longer.

  10. #80
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    At one time that was the definition, but no longer.
    No, still is. Look it up.
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
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