View Poll Results: where does the main issue lie?

Voters
24. You may not vote on this poll
  • People are irresponsible, undisciplined, lazy, and/or some other moral failing

    10 41.67%
  • People are insufficiently educated to understand complex and long term needs

    11 45.83%
  • individual long term planning is simply against human nature and will never reasonably happen

    5 20.83%
  • There are factors we do not yet understand

    0 0%
  • these may seem like a failure of programs but are for the best for society

    0 0%
  • external factors we do understand play a role but were not originally planned for

    4 16.67%
  • something else (explain)

    4 16.67%
  • burrito rootabega

    5 20.83%
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Thread: adults and responsibility

  1. #61
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    No, 'liberal' means the same thing it always has. Look it up, and if the people you're describing don't fit the definition, they aren't liberals.
    It's like identifying a tree from the Audubon guide.
    I couldn't disagree with you more. The term liberal has been totally redefined. The classical liberal is someone who believes is small government, individualism, states rights, free markets. Today many who call themselves "liberal" are far from the true definition but the polar opposite. They are Welfare Liberals who promote big government, believe in collectivism, and are more in favor of practicing corporatism over capitalism. Today a true conservative is closer in line with a classical liberal than many of those who call themselves liberals.

  2. #62
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Lost me.
    Al things regulated by liberals and/or Democrats.

  3. #63
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Except that's not how it works in practice. If everyone was just free to do and believe whatever they wanted, you wouldn't have so many vocal liberals out screaming about racism and sexism and gay marriage and all of that. It would be acceptable for whoever wanted to believe those things to believe those things and so long as people didn't act on their beliefs to discriminate against others, they should be free to think and say what they want. We all know that's not how things work in liberal circles.
    There's the rub ...
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  4. #64
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Yes, I do. That was one of my points. The other point was that what we call liberalism here in the US these days, isn't really liberalism for the most part, but more along the lines of collectivism.
    Ah. I misread, sorry.
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
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  5. #65
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    I couldn't disagree with you more. The term liberal has been totally redefined. The classical liberal is someone who believes is small government, individualism, states rights, free markets. Today many who call themselves "liberal" are far from the true definition but the polar opposite. They are Welfare Liberals who promote big government, believe in collectivism, and are more in favor of practicing corporatism over capitalism. Today a true conservative is closer in line with a classical liberal than many of those who call themselves liberals.
    No, the term hasn't been redefined. I just checked. What you wrote, 'small government, individualism, states rights, free markets', is a pretty accurate description of liberalism (minus the 'states rights', but that too might be a part of liberalism in an American context). Anyone who calls himself liberal but believes in 'big government' and collectivism doesn't know what liberal means and definitely isn't one. Ditto for anyone who says that liberals believe in big government, collectivism, etc- they don't know what liberal means, either.
    Liberals may have gotten scarce but that's no excuse for those who think that repeating a falsehood often enough turns it into truth.
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
    -John Stuart Mill-

  6. #66
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Al things regulated by liberals and/or Democrats.
    Democrats maybe, but not liberals.
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
    -John Stuart Mill-

  7. #67
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    People are stupid, irresponsible, and lazy. Both government and our national elites encourage them in this.

  8. #68
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    No, the term hasn't been redefined. I just checked. What you wrote, 'small government, individualism, states rights, free markets', is a pretty accurate description of liberalism (minus the 'states rights', but that too might be a part of liberalism in an American context). Anyone who calls himself liberal but believes in 'big government' and collectivism doesn't know what liberal means and definitely isn't one. Ditto for anyone who says that liberals believe in big government, collectivism, etc- they don't know what liberal means, either.
    Liberals may have gotten scarce but that's no excuse for those who think that repeating a falsehood often enough turns it into truth.
    No it isn't an excuse but that is what has happened.

  9. #69
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    I know what liberal means, I've been one all my life. If I didn't know what it means, I'd look it up. Maybe you should do that, look it up. If the people you're describing don't fit the definition (and they don't), then they aren't liberals, are they. It's a common tactic among conservatives- describe something negative and call it liberal. Don't worry if it's the truth, just keep saying it.
    Wanting the government to tell you what to do is the exact opposite of liberal. Walking in lockstep is opposite to liberal. Those are more conservative traits, obedience and strength-in-numbers.
    If you were a liberal, you wouldn't identify yourself as "other" would you? You're welcome to think what you like about liberalism and identify yourself any way you like, but when it comes to people who actively self-identify as liberals, they don't think the way you do. Maybe it's you who is using the label incorrectly.
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  10. #70
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    There's the rub ...
    Indeed. Unfortunately, many liberals are not out to stop people from acting incorrectly, or at least not in the best interest of all, they want people to stop thinking in a manner contrary to liberalism. This is quite clear when talking about gay marriage. Not only do they want gay marriage to be legal, they want people who oppose gay marriage to accept homosexuality as normal and natural and acceptable. It's not just about changing the laws and the culture, it's about stamping out thoughtcrime.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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