View Poll Results: where does the main issue lie?

Voters
24. You may not vote on this poll
  • People are irresponsible, undisciplined, lazy, and/or some other moral failing

    10 41.67%
  • People are insufficiently educated to understand complex and long term needs

    11 45.83%
  • individual long term planning is simply against human nature and will never reasonably happen

    5 20.83%
  • There are factors we do not yet understand

    0 0%
  • these may seem like a failure of programs but are for the best for society

    0 0%
  • external factors we do understand play a role but were not originally planned for

    4 16.67%
  • something else (explain)

    4 16.67%
  • burrito rootabega

    5 20.83%
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Thread: adults and responsibility

  1. #51
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    yes and no. when discussing issues of freedom, it always gets murky as there are different shades and view of exactly what we want to be free from. as a progressive (which I view as being both compatible with conservatism and liberalism) to me, the question is "free from what?". In the end, we are all subject to frailties that physical existence subjects ourselves to from instinctual drives, to biological, to emotional, to spiritual, to social needs (and other categories), which in the end makes us subjects or something whether we like it or not. some traditions of liberalism like to make a distinction between society and the individual in some cases, but I personally don't see the need for it and such a distinction as being wholly artificial. Some would promote the idea that this distinction is where the line to freedom truly is. but even then we are still subject to all sorts of forces and are our lives any better as a result?

    that question, obviously is unanswerable as there is no determinism in what it asks. it simply states that without one force, we are simply better off in a metaphysical sense that may or may not control for practical benefits. so yes, modern liberalism offers freedom and so does old school liberalism, and frankly so does theocracy, communism, and any other ism, its just a matter of "which freedom". Even despotism offers freedom from the burden of choice (which can be attractive for a higher % of the population than most would suspect, unfortunately) and certain types of consequences.

    In the end, we are just a mess and bundle of drives and needs a smattering of logic thrown on top for self justification and rationalization. which freedom is best? I personally am not sure. I don't see the old models as realistic, but idealistic in light of what we know about how the brain functions, yet at the same time, there is use for high expectations and stretch goals as it brings out the best in people (but then the libertarians would be in horror in that i would even see their philosophy as only useful in the same practical and social engineering considerations I see in the use of any philosophy) in certain ways, but it also brings out the worst in people as well.

    So in a sense mill had it right and wrong as there is no clear standard because humans just ain't built with a single overriding drive, but a mix of competing drives which is what gives rise to all styles of political philosophy in the first place.
    Exactly. All of this is ultimately put together in various different shades of gray. How objectively "desirable" any given system happens to be all depends, in the end, on what you are trying to accomplish.

    While I personally lean a bit more towards the very mildly Libertarian side of things in my ideology, I am fully willing to admit that systems which provide greater or lesser degrees of freedom can be preferable under certain circumstances. For instance, during the Dark Ages, an authoritarian government which provided a person "freedom" from fear and harm in a dangerous world was preferable to democracy.

    Today, there isn't as much of a need for that kind of thing, so our society has shifted to provide a much greater level of personal and political autonomy. There is nothing wrong with that.

    Practicality ultimately determines what the "best" system, and the best degree of "freedom," for any given situation happens to be, IMO.

    Unfortunately, however; it simply happens to be the case that people will occasionally get it wrong, and wind up supporting a broken and unsustainable system as a consequence of this. When this happens, the results generally tend to be disastrous on a long term basis.

  2. #52
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    That is, in essence, what modern "Liberals" attempt to do. They want to force our society, and the people living within it, to be "free" (as Liberals define the term) regardless of whether they want it or not.

    As I said, it's a strange kind of paradox. It's both socially Libertarian and politically Authoritarian at the same time.
    Both the liberals and the neo-cons are authoritarian. They are really both the same thing, they just get their ideas that they want to enforce from different places and both of them spend like drunken sailors. There are no actual conservative political parties right now, it's just the loony left liberals and the religious right liberals.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #53
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Both the liberals and the neo-cons are authoritarian. They are really both the same thing, they just get their ideas that they want to enforce from different places and both of them spend like drunken sailors. There are no actual conservative political parties right now, it's just the loony left liberals and the religious right liberals.
    Absolutely.

    However, I would point out that, if we want to get technical about things here, there are no "Conservatives" in the United States at all. "Conservatives," as classically defined, support either Monarchal or Theocratic forms of government.

    As pretty much no one in the United States supports that, we are all "Liberal" to some extent or another. The real divide in American politics these days is simply between more Capitalistic Liberals on the one side, who favor economic freedom while supporting social authoritarianism, and Socialistic Liberals (that are honestly so far to the Left these days that they barely even qualify for the 'Liberal' moniker anymore) who favor social freedom while supporting economic authoritarianism on the other.

  4. #54
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Absolutely.

    However, I would point out that, if we want to get technical about things here, there are no "Conservatives" in the United States at all. "Conservatives," as classically defined, support either Monarchal or Theocratic forms of government.

    As pretty much no one in the United States supports that, we are all "Liberal" to some extent or another. The real divide in American politics these days is simply between more Capitalistic Liberals on the one side, who favor economic freedom while supporting social authoritarianism, and Socialistic Liberals (that are honestly so far to the Left these days that they barely even qualify for the 'Liberal' moniker anymore) who favor social freedom while supporting economic authoritarianism on the other.
    I really don't care how it's been defined in the past or in other countries, only how it's been defined traditionally in the United States and what we have now are not traditionally-defined conservatives, it's just various flavors of liberals and that's really why this country is going to hell in a handbasket because liberalism of either variety simply doesn't work.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #55
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Well, unless we're talking about e-cigs, baby formula, Happy Meals and sodas over 16 ounces.
    Lost me.
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  6. #56
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    The bolded isn't generally the case, as practiced today in our society. American liberalism has come to represent the idea that the ideal place for power resides in government, and that the individual is only secondary, and only desirable if it happens to coincide with what the group values.
    No, 'liberal' means the same thing it always has. Look it up, and if the people you're describing don't fit the definition, they aren't liberals.
    It's like identifying a tree from the Audubon guide.
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  7. #57
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    No, 'liberal' means the same thing it always has. Look it up, and if the people you're describing don't fit the definition, they aren't liberals.
    It's like identifying a tree from the Audubon guide.
    Yes, I am aware of what it means.
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  8. #58
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Maybe the word you're thinking about is libertarian. Liberals aren't like that. Liberals are people walking in lockstep who want to control what you can say and think (political correctness). They don't want you to be personally responsible for your own actions, they want the government to tell you what to do.
    I know what liberal means, I've been one all my life. If I didn't know what it means, I'd look it up. Maybe you should do that, look it up. If the people you're describing don't fit the definition (and they don't), then they aren't liberals, are they. It's a common tactic among conservatives- describe something negative and call it liberal. Don't worry if it's the truth, just keep saying it.
    Wanting the government to tell you what to do is the exact opposite of liberal. Walking in lockstep is opposite to liberal. Those are more conservative traits, obedience and strength-in-numbers.
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  9. #59
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Yes, I am aware of what it means.
    Then you know that, "the ideal place for power resides in government, and that the individual is only secondary," is the opposite of liberalism.
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  10. #60
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Then you know that, "the ideal place for power resides in government, and that the individual is only secondary," is the opposite of liberalism.
    Yes, I do. That was one of my points. The other point was that what we call liberalism here in the US these days, isn't really liberalism for the most part, but more along the lines of collectivism.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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