View Poll Results: where does the main issue lie?

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24. You may not vote on this poll
  • People are irresponsible, undisciplined, lazy, and/or some other moral failing

    10 41.67%
  • People are insufficiently educated to understand complex and long term needs

    11 45.83%
  • individual long term planning is simply against human nature and will never reasonably happen

    5 20.83%
  • There are factors we do not yet understand

    0 0%
  • these may seem like a failure of programs but are for the best for society

    0 0%
  • external factors we do understand play a role but were not originally planned for

    4 16.67%
  • something else (explain)

    4 16.67%
  • burrito rootabega

    5 20.83%
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Thread: adults and responsibility

  1. #41
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    The bolded isn't generally the case, as practiced today in our society. American liberalism has come to represent the idea that the ideal place for power resides in government, and that the individual is only secondary, and only desirable if it happens to coincide with what the group values.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Maybe the word you're thinking about is libertarian. Liberals aren't like that. Liberals are people walking in lockstep who want to control what you can say and think (political correctness). They don't want you to be personally responsible for your own actions, they want the government to tell you what to do.
    To be fair here, the attitudes he describes are quite applicable to modern "Liberals" when it comes to their views on social and moral matters. The modern Left is very much "anything goes" when it comes to traditionally "taboo" behaviors, with individualistically centered personal gratification being the only goal they view as being in any sense salient or worthy of consideration in pursuing them.

    i.e. "If it feels good, do it."

    I think this would be more generally indicative of "Libertinism" than "Libertarianism," however.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    To be fair here, the attitudes he describes are quite applicable to modern "Liberals" when it comes to their views on social and moral matters. The modern Left is very much "anything goes" when it comes to traditionally "taboo" behaviors, with individualistically centered personal gratification being the only goal they view as being in any sense salient or worthy of consideration in pursuing them.

    i.e. "If it feels good, do it."

    I think this would be more generally indicative of "Libertinism" than "Libertarianism," however.
    I am referring to liberalism as today's Americans often self-identify, as opposed to the actual meaning of the word, as it relates to government and its role in the lives of individuals.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I am referring to liberalism as today's Americans often self-identify, as opposed to the actual meaning of the word, as it relates to government and its role in the lives of individuals.
    True. I was simply saying that it is not entirely clear whether he was speaking in terms of government policy, ideology, or cultural attitudes there. While the attitudes he described do not fit modern "Liberal" government policy, they do fit modern Liberal ideology and culture where social matters and freedom of personal conduct are concerned.

    The most apt way to put things here, I believe, would be to say that Liberals feel that individualism and individual gratification should be the primary concern of a society, and that they should be "free" to do whatever they damn well please as such without consequence so long as they do not harm others in the process. They simply feel that Government should unconditionally provide for them in doing so, keep them safe and comfortable, and be on stand-by to pick up the pieces and kiss their "boo-boos" should they ever happen to fall flat on their faces.

    They are basically really slutty hobbits with codependency issues.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-20-14 at 04:57 PM.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    True. I was simply saying that it is not entirely clear whether he was speaking in terms of government policy, ideology, or cultural attitudes there. While the attitudes he described do not fit modern "Liberal" government policy, they do fit modern Liberal ideology and culture where social matters and freedom of personal conduct are concerned.

    The most apt way to put things here, I believe, would be to say that Liberals feel that individualism and individual gratification should be the primary concern of a society, and that they should be "free" to do whatever they damn well please as such without consequence so long as they do not harm others in the process. They simply feel that Government should unconditionally provide for them in doing so, keep them safe and comfortable, and be on stand-by to pick up the pieces and kiss their "boo-boos" should they ever happen to fall flat on their faces.

    They are basically really slutty hobbits.
    hobbit orgies in something I don't want to contemplate. hairy feet everywhere

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    True. I was simply saying that it is not entirely clear whether he was speaking in terms of government policy, ideology, or cultural attitudes there. While the attitudes he described do not fit modern "Liberal" government policy, they do fit modern Liberal ideology and culture where social matters and freedom of personal conduct are concerned.
    Except that's not how it works in practice. If everyone was just free to do and believe whatever they wanted, you wouldn't have so many vocal liberals out screaming about racism and sexism and gay marriage and all of that. It would be acceptable for whoever wanted to believe those things to believe those things and so long as people didn't act on their beliefs to discriminate against others, they should be free to think and say what they want. We all know that's not how things work in liberal circles.
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Except that's not how it works in practice. If everyone was just free to do and believe whatever they wanted, you wouldn't have so many vocal liberals out screaming about racism and sexism and gay marriage and all of that. It would be acceptable for whoever wanted to believe those things to believe those things and so long as people didn't act on their beliefs to discriminate against others, they should be free to think and say what they want. We all know that's not how things work in liberal circles.
    Yes, which is sort of the paradox of the thing. You are free to do pretty much whatever you want, EXCEPT anything that happens to hamper their fun (i.e. cultural Conservatism), or makes them feel threatened (i.e. owning guns, smoking, making more money than they view as being seemly, etca). If you do any of those things, they feel that you are a bad person, and should be harassed and shamed into submission.

    Naturally, they also want to use the power of Government to enforce their vision of how society should be run, so that they can ensure that the sanctity of their little Libertine "utopia" is not questioned.

    It's a rather bourgeois philosophy, all told. They are almost inhumanely pleasant and "tolerant" towards those they view as warranting it, but viciously authoritarian towards those they view as threatening their goals or peace of mind.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    It's a rather bourgeois philosophy, all told. They are almost inhumanely pleasant and "tolerant" towards those they view as warranting it, and viciously authoritarian towards those they view as threatening their goals.
    But this is what he actually said, which you tried to defend:
    What you describe isn't liberalization, it's some kind of sheep-like, groupthink passivity that's the antithesis of liberal. Liberals believe in personal freedoms and power over all considerations of group, government or good-for-the-country.
    He was correct in the use of what the term actually means. My point was that this isn't what we see in the US today, often posing as liberals. There are a good number of actual liberals in this country, and they come from different political persuasions.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    But this is what he actually said, which you tried to defend:

    He was correct in the use of what the term actually means. My point was that this isn't what we see in the US today, often posing as liberals. There are a good number of actual liberals in this country, and they come from different political persuasions.
    Yes, but I was pointing out that what he said is actually true of the other variety of "Liberal" as well. They simply have a slightly different take on it.

    You have to understand that a lot of the modern Left finds its basis in the works of philosophers like Jean-Jacques Rousseau. He wrote the following regarding the nature of "freedom."

    Rousseau: Social Contract: Book I

    In order then that the social compact may not be an empty formula, it tacitly includes the undertaking, which alone can give force to the rest, that whoever refuses to obey the general will shall be compelled to do so by the whole body.

    This means nothing less than that he will be forced to be free; for this is the condition which, by giving each citizen to his country, secures him against all personal dependence. In this lies the key to the working of the political machine; this alone legitimises civil undertakings, which, without it, would be absurd, tyrannical, and liable to the most frightful abuses.
    That is, in essence, what modern "Liberals" attempt to do. They want to force our society, and the people living within it, to be "free" (as Liberals define the term) regardless of whether they want it or not.

    As I said, it's a strange kind of paradox. It's both socially Libertarian and politically Authoritarian at the same time.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-20-14 at 06:05 PM.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    People are taught that the govt will take of them, so why invest?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Yes, but I was pointing out that what he said is actually true of the other variety of "Liberal" as well. They simply have a slightly different take on it.

    You have to understand that a lot of the modern Left finds its basis in the works of philosophers like Jean-Jacques Rousseau. He wrote the following regarding the nature of "freedom."

    Rousseau: Social Contract: Book I



    That is, in essence, what modern "Liberals" attempt to do. They want to force our society, and the people living within it, to be "free" (as Liberals define the term) regardless of whether they want it or not.

    As I said, it's a strange kind of paradox. It's both socially Libertarian and politically Authoritarian at the same time.
    yes and no. when discussing issues of freedom, it always gets murky as there are different shades and view of exactly what we want to be free from. as a progressive (which I view as being both compatible with conservatism and liberalism) to me, the question is "free from what?". In the end, we are all subject to frailties that physical existence subjects ourselves to from instinctual drives, to biological, to emotional, to spiritual, to social needs (and other categories), which in the end makes us subjects or something whether we like it or not. some traditions of liberalism like to make a distinction between society and the individual in some cases, but I personally don't see the need for it and such a distinction as being wholly artificial. Some would promote the idea that this distinction is where the line to freedom truly is. but even then we are still subject to all sorts of forces and are our lives any better as a result?

    that question, obviously is unanswerable as there is no determinism in what it asks. it simply states that without one force, we are simply better off in a metaphysical sense that may or may not control for practical benefits. so yes, modern liberalism offers freedom and so does old school liberalism, and frankly so does theocracy, communism, and any other ism, its just a matter of "which freedom". Even despotism offers freedom from the burden of choice (which can be attractive for a higher % of the population than most would suspect, unfortunately) and certain types of consequences.

    In the end, we are just a mess and bundle of drives and needs a smattering of logic thrown on top for self justification and rationalization. which freedom is best? I personally am not sure. I don't see the old models as realistic, but idealistic in light of what we know about how the brain functions, yet at the same time, there is use for high expectations and stretch goals as it brings out the best in people (but then the libertarians would be in horror in that i would even see their philosophy as only useful in the same practical and social engineering considerations I see in the use of any philosophy) in certain ways, but it also brings out the worst in people as well.

    So in a sense mill had it right and wrong as there is no clear standard because humans just ain't built with a single overriding drive, but a mix of competing drives which is what gives rise to all styles of political philosophy in the first place.

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