View Poll Results: where does the main issue lie?

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  • People are irresponsible, undisciplined, lazy, and/or some other moral failing

    10 41.67%
  • People are insufficiently educated to understand complex and long term needs

    11 45.83%
  • individual long term planning is simply against human nature and will never reasonably happen

    5 20.83%
  • There are factors we do not yet understand

    0 0%
  • these may seem like a failure of programs but are for the best for society

    0 0%
  • external factors we do understand play a role but were not originally planned for

    4 16.67%
  • something else (explain)

    4 16.67%
  • burrito rootabega

    5 20.83%
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Thread: adults and responsibility

  1. #31
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    What you describe isn't liberalization, it's some kind of sheep-like, groupthink passivity that's the antithesis of liberal. Liberals believe in personal freedoms and power over all considerations of group, government or good-for-the-country.
    The bolded isn't generally the case, as practiced today in our society. American liberalism has come to represent the idea that the ideal place for power resides in government, and that the individual is only secondary, and only desirable if it happens to coincide with what the group values.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  2. #32
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    It seems to be a good general rule of thumb to say that a person (or system, for that matter) can only indulge in decadent and apathy for so long before it finally catches up with them and brings the whole shebang crashing down.

    I'd say that our society is rapidly approaching that point. Hopefully, when and if we ever do "hit the wall," so to speak, we will rise to the occasion, as you did, rather than allow it to break us.
    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I hope so, I am far more pessimistic.
    I don't share your pessimism and here is why. The Great Depression was as low of a time as the U.S. has seen, though there were depressions prior to it, the Great Depression followed a massive market boom, and with that came similar undisciplined financial structures, people spent, they spent what they didn't have, and in such a mass that the entire thing collapsed. The swing to that was a gradual rebuilding that led to great times economically in the 50s, only to swing down again in the late 60s to around the mid 80s. The 90s had a bit of a boom, and we are in the down swing right now, with a bit of discipline the future will swing back again.

    My grandparents were in their prime during the depression, they had to scrounge, fight, and save and with that they became very savvy with their money, they wouldn't spend a dime they didn't have to minus maybe a nice car for my grandmother and some race horses(investment, but they loved those animals) and they did alright. The Depression forced their generation to mind their finances and I think that if things ever got that bad again, we would see another generation like them, there wouldn't be a choice.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  3. #33
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    The bulk of society was like minded and middle class in production, values and job positions the past 50 years but it's becoming a disjointed, hodgepodge of separate sections. I see that as a minus for the direction of the country as a whole.

    Gathomas is on to something as far as the history of human nature and the rise and fall of empires. Our generation did not work for all the knowledge, wealth and infrastructure that previous era's built and freely gave to us. We don't have an appreciation for it and are pissing it away.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  4. #34
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    What you describe isn't liberalization, it's some kind of sheep-like, groupthink passivity that's the antithesis of liberal. Liberals believe in personal freedoms and power over all considerations of group, government or good-for-the-country.
    Maybe the word you're thinking about is libertarian. Liberals aren't like that. Liberals are people walking in lockstep who want to control what you can say and think (political correctness). They don't want you to be personally responsible for your own actions, they want the government to tell you what to do.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #35
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    The bulk of society was like minded and middle class in production, values and job positions the past 50 years but it's becoming a disjointed, hodgepodge of separate sections. I see that as a minus for the direction of the country as a whole.

    Gathomas is on to something as far as the history of human nature and the rise and fall of empires. Our generation did not work for all the knowledge, wealth and infrastructure that previous era's built and freely gave to us. We don't have an appreciation for it and are pissing it away.
    Which is basically what I think we are witnessing today; the beginnings of the "fall" of an empire. I don't mean just the United States either, but the Western World in general.

    Westerners have basically "ruled the world" for the last three hundred years, and we've clearly let it go to our heads. The United States (essentially serving as the Rome to Europe's Greece) is the last bastion of the effortless economic, military, and social supremacy our culture once held over global affairs.

    When and if we finally lose our grasp on things (which is looking to be more and more inevitable as China and India continue their ascent), Western Civilization will very likely find itself fading into "Byzantine" irrelevancy as the rest of the world passes it by.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-20-14 at 04:02 PM.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    The bulk of society was like minded and middle class in production, values and job positions the past 50 years but it's becoming a disjointed, hodgepodge of separate sections. I see that as a minus for the direction of the country as a whole.

    Gathomas is on to something as far as the history of human nature and the rise and fall of empires. Our generation did not work for all the knowledge, wealth and infrastructure that previous era's built and freely gave to us. We don't have an appreciation for it and are pissing it away.
    I think though, once the protectionist programs start to fall apart we can turn that around provided there is still a sense of who we are. The current path is unsustainable, meaning we'll all have to wake up and smell the coffee at some point, or fail, those are our two options.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  7. #37
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Which is basically what I think we are witnessing today; the beginnings of the "fall" of an empire. I don't mean just the United States either, but the Western World in general.

    Westerners have basically "ruled the world" for the last three hundred years, and we've clearly let it go to our heads. The United States (essentially serving as the Rome to Europe's Greece) is the last bastion of the effortless economic, military, and social supremacy our culture once held over global affairs.

    When and if we finally lose our grasp on things (which is looking to be more and more inevitable as China and India continue their ascent), Western Civilization will very likely find itself fading into "Byzantine" irrelevancy as the rest of the world passes us by.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I think though, once the protectionist programs start to fall apart we can turn that around provided there is still a sense of who we are. The current path is unsustainable, meaning we'll all have to wake up and smell the coffee at some point, or fail, those are our two options.
    Part of the recipe for success is also going to be a cause for the downfall, which is endless growth. The planet and species simply cannot overcome the hurdles of what a continous pattern of increase ultimately accomplishes in a world of limitation. From financial to ecological, resources will be forced by nature back into a form of equilibrium and balance. And a majority of civilization will go thru disatsterous times during this painful retraction. As usual certain areas of society will be better insulated than others.

    How fast this occurs and to what degree if affects the US in comparison to other nations is dependent upon a whole set of unforseen circumstances. The USA may literally restructure its boundaries in a financial collapse. One thing is for sure that once the wealthy top 85 individuals who are worth as much as half the total population decide to stop loaning money because it doesn't work the rest of us will be scrambling. Cash will be king and credit a thing of rarity.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Part of the recipe for success is also going to be a cause for the downfall, which is endless growth. The planet and species simply cannot overcome the hurdles of what a continous pattern of increase ultimately accomplishes in a world of limitation. From financial to ecological, resources will be forced by nature back into a form of equilibrium and balance. And a majority of civilization will go thru disatsterous times during this painful retraction. As usual certain areas of society will be better insulated than others.

    How fast this occurs and to what degree if affects the US in comparison to other nations is dependent upon a whole set of unforseen circumstances. The USA may literally restructure its boundaries in a financial collapse. One thing is for sure that once the wealthy top 85 individuals who are worth as much as half the total population decide to stop loaning money because it doesn't work the rest of us will be scrambling. Cash will be king and credit a thing of rarity.
    Which is exactly why we need to start seriously considering taking steps to move beyond such limitations, rather than pretending like they represent only irrelevant flights of fancy. We've grown to be too large a fish in too small a pond.

    It is simply unfortunate that there is so little any one individual can do to alter such a state of affairs. If the social conditions for a societal leap forward are not just right, it will not occur, regardless of whether the innate potential for it can be said to exist or not.

    The Greeks and Romans, for instance, easily could have facilitated their own industrial revolution. They ultimately failed to do so simply because they viewed the technologies which could have made it possible as being mere toys, and possessed such a glut of cheap and readily available human raw materials in the form of slaves that they saw no need for reform until it was too late.

    I get the definite feeling that our own society's potential for space travel and the exploitation of the limitless raw resources contained therein might very well end in much the same way.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-20-14 at 04:20 PM.

  9. #39
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Part of the recipe for success is also going to be a cause for the downfall, which is endless growth. The planet and species simply cannot overcome the hurdles of what a continous pattern of increase ultimately accomplishes in a world of limitation. From financial to ecological, resources will be forced by nature back into a form of equilibrium and balance. And a majority of civilization will go thru disatsterous times during this painful retraction. As usual certain areas of society will be better insulated than others.

    How fast this occurs and to what degree if affects the US in comparison to other nations is dependent upon a whole set of unforseen circumstances. The USA may literally restructure its boundaries in a financial collapse. One thing is for sure that once the wealthy top 85 individuals who are worth as much as half the total population decide to stop loaning money because it doesn't work the rest of us will be scrambling. Cash will be king and credit a thing of rarity.
    Can't say I disagree with this. Eventually everything in nature resets, people don't believe me at times when I say this but economics simply is a study of the natural interaction of trade, when something is unsustainable it will eventually lead to shrinkage and at the point of equilibrium it will simply swing up again.

    Growth can be good or bad, it depends upon what is supporting it. Too much in and not enough output will become a liability, not true growth, however if a dollar spent produces two, there is a reasonable expectation of sustainability, etc.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  10. #40
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Which is exactly why we need to start seriously considering taking steps to move beyond such limitations, rather than pretending like they represent only irrelevant flights of fancy. We've grown to be too large a fish in too small a pond.

    It is simply unfortunate that there is so little any one individual can do to alter such a state of affairs. If the social conditions for a societal leap forward are not just right, it will not occur, regardless of whether the innate potential for it can be said to exist or not.

    The Greeks and Romans, for instance, easily could have facilitated their own industrial revolution. They ultimately failed to do so simply because they viewed the technologies which could have made it possible as being mere toys, and possessed such a glut of cheap and readily available human raw materials in the form of slaves that they saw no need for reform until it was too late.

    I get the definite feeling that our own society's potential for space travel and the exploitation of the limitless raw resources contained therein might very well end in much the same way.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Can't say I disagree with this. Eventually everything in nature resets, people don't believe me at times when I say this but economics simply is a study of the natural interaction of trade, when something is unsustainable it will eventually lead to shrinkage and at the point of equilibrium it will simply swing up again.

    Growth can be good or bad, it depends upon what is supporting it. Too much in and not enough output will become a liability, not true growth, however if a dollar spent produces two, there is a reasonable expectation of sustainability, etc.


    Unless we face an extinction event we'll continue to push forward in some fashion. I don't realistically believe we'll lose all the knowledge and technology we've gained though it may eventually be limited into the hands of a fewer and fewer elite ruling class.

    We need off planet resources and the governments know it but the sheer financial costs are unfathomable. In time that will become a reality where we populate the oceans (floating cities), space stations, moons and planets like mars, until scientific breakthroughs allow for stellar travel. If we shrink into a healthier, positive and more effectively advanced species, then we'll prosper across the board but that won't occur, until the great reduction happens.

    When too many people exist that can't be of a benefit to the species as a whole, let's say nature doesn't tolerate that very well. Like LMR says there's a cyclical pattern to nature of gain & loss that is regenerative and usually an advancement in evolution.
    Last edited by grip; 01-20-14 at 04:49 PM.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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