View Poll Results: where does the main issue lie?

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  • People are irresponsible, undisciplined, lazy, and/or some other moral failing

    10 41.67%
  • People are insufficiently educated to understand complex and long term needs

    11 45.83%
  • individual long term planning is simply against human nature and will never reasonably happen

    5 20.83%
  • There are factors we do not yet understand

    0 0%
  • these may seem like a failure of programs but are for the best for society

    0 0%
  • external factors we do understand play a role but were not originally planned for

    4 16.67%
  • something else (explain)

    4 16.67%
  • burrito rootabega

    5 20.83%
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Thread: adults and responsibility

  1. #21
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    I speak only the pragmatic truth. Human beings do best when working towards something greater than themselves.
    but tend to only do so en masse for relatively short periods of time. at least historically speaking.

  2. #22
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    That would depend upon how one defines the term.

    I take it that you are referring to the word in its more "classical" form? If so, that is an idea I can absolutely get behind.

    I believe that some of the ideology's premises are flawed (which is a large part of the reason for our current conundrum in the first place), but its intentions are undeniably noble. The same cannot be said for many of its more modern aberrations.



    I agree. Less intervention in public matters is often more. Our society will ultimately sink or swim on its own merits.

    Frankly, it is pretty damn hard to successfully "supervise and administer" public attitudes and cultural ideas anyway. Far more interested regimes than our own have tried and failed miserably.
    I'm not sure what 'classical' means, exactly- I only know what my father and my experience have taught me.
    'Less is more', yes, that pretty much sums up what I want of government in my life.
    Cheers.
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
    -John Stuart Mill-

  3. #23
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    I speak only the pragmatic truth. Human beings do best when working towards something greater than themselves.
    Well, Mr. Thomas. I'll perfunctorily ponder your "pragmatic truth". But my sense of skepticism enhances many times fold when somebody implies that they are the bearer of "truth" in any capacity.

  4. #24
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    What you describe isn't liberalization, it's some kind of sheep-like, groupthink passivity that's the antithesis of liberal. Liberals believe in personal freedoms and power over all considerations of group, government or good-for-the-country.
    Well, unless we're talking about e-cigs, baby formula, Happy Meals and sodas over 16 ounces.

  5. #25
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    but tend to only do so en masse for relatively short periods of time. at least historically speaking.
    True, but some cultures seem to be better suited towards producing those kinds of feelings than others. To use US history as just one example, "manifest destiny" lasted for well over 100 years.

    Besides a few notable exceptions which weren't even particularly long lived, the only thing many people (especially of the younger generation) really seem to get worked up over these days is banal rabble rousing and the threat of impending benefit cuts.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-20-14 at 03:21 PM.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    True, but some cultures seem to be better suited towards producing those kinds of feelings than others. To use US history as just one example, "manifest destiny" lasted for well over 100 years.

    Besides a few notable exceptions which weren't even particularly long lived, the only thing many people (especially of the younger generation) really seem to get worked up over these days is rabble rousing and the threat of impending benefit cuts.
    I had a ****ty 2013, but it motivated me to get off my ass. We have been too successful and too comfortable for too long.

    sometimes when I pray and ask "why did this bad thing happen to me?" often times, the reason something bad was to snap me out of some behavior or point of view that would be self destructive if it goes on too long. Its the same lesson.

  7. #27
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I think we are looking at two sides of the same coin here. The brain is pretty much wired to look to short term risks and pleasurable gains. In tribal times, such behaviors would keep us alive. our love of sugar and sweet foods is a great example, in nature that's hard to come by, but not any more, so as humans we regress to the LCD (as we always do) and make ourselves fat. In more complex societies, its a detriment. The problem is that humanity only has some much autonomy and will power from its own instincts, thus I believe any successful social engineering, like 401k or whatever we come up with in our future needs a bit of pokeyoke to account for our natures. We are too optimistic about ourselves and our abilities. The ideal of human choice is misunderstood, I think, because its based on philosophical grounds from 400-500 years ago and not modern neuroscience, which is painting a far different picture.
    I don't think nature favors either side of planning, it's more complicated than that. Sure, in primitive times the short term was the most important as hunter/gatherers had the highest priority in the tribe, however, holding and planning for lean times has been a concept of humans since ancient times.

    I think it's more than nature, I think that there is an overall lack of discipline and unfortunately I think it's a cultural thing. We glamorize consumerism, which is fine, but the old school advice of making sure that there is a little left for later is unheeded. I partially blame the credit companies though, they have sold "easy money" for decades and the actual accumulation and discipline was thrown out of the window.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  8. #28
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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I had a ****ty 2013, but it motivated me to get off my ass. We have been too successful and too comfortable for too long.

    sometimes when I pray and ask "why did this bad thing happen to me?" often times, the reason something bad was to snap me out of some behavior or point of view that would be self destructive if it goes on too long. Its the same lesson.
    It seems to be a good general rule of thumb to say that a person (or system, for that matter) can only indulge in decadent apathy for so long before it finally catches up with them and brings the whole shebang crashing down.

    I'd say that our society is rapidly approaching that point. Hopefully, when and if we ever do "hit the wall," so to speak, we will rise to the occasion, as you did, rather than allow it to break us.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-20-14 at 03:35 PM.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    It seems to be a good general rule of thumb to say that a person (or system, for that matter) can only indulge in decadent and apathetic laziness for so long before it finally catches up with them and brings the whole shebang crashing down.

    I'd say that our society is rapidly approaching that point. Hopefully, when and if we ever do "hit the wall," so to speak, we will rise to the occasion, as you did, rather than allow it to break us.
    I hope so, I am far more pessimistic.

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    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I hope so, I am far more pessimistic.
    That's why I said "hopefully."

    While I hope I'm wrong, my general knowledge of human nature leads me to believe that things will likely get a Hell of a lot worse before they get better.

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