View Poll Results: where does the main issue lie?

Voters
24. You may not vote on this poll
  • People are irresponsible, undisciplined, lazy, and/or some other moral failing

    10 41.67%
  • People are insufficiently educated to understand complex and long term needs

    11 45.83%
  • individual long term planning is simply against human nature and will never reasonably happen

    5 20.83%
  • There are factors we do not yet understand

    0 0%
  • these may seem like a failure of programs but are for the best for society

    0 0%
  • external factors we do understand play a role but were not originally planned for

    4 16.67%
  • something else (explain)

    4 16.67%
  • burrito rootabega

    5 20.83%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 91

Thread: adults and responsibility

  1. #11
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    that might fit under insufficient education, but then again, you can lead a horse to water ...
    I will give you a perfect example. A potential client years ago "took a walk" after I spent about three days putting together health coverage for him. I got the numbers to less than 300$ and a moderate deductible which should have been more than affordable for a dual income family with no children, the guy overextended, everything he and his wife owned carried a debt and they couldn't afford the premium. The sad thing is, should one of them fallen ill, they would have been in a financial catastrophe and everything would have evaporated anyway, but, like you stated "you can lead a horse...........".
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  2. #12
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    That's kind of what I'm saying. People's expectations of their 401(k) earnings is often unrealistic. They look at the results after a year and say "well, it's really not doing anything" and then they stop contributing. Under the scenario I put up after 10 years you'd only have a $20k gain so I can see the frustration but in 15 years it turns into a $50k gain and after 20 years it's a $100k gain. After 30 years you'd be close to doubling your contributions and that's at a rather modest rate of return.

    The expectation shouldn't be for an immediate benefit, it should be for a long term benefit.
    I think it comes from "permanent employee" mentality, not an insult, but some people think like an employee when in their finances should think like an "employer". Lots of households plan for the month, when the smarter plan is to plan for the year, then when the year is done, plan for five, then ten. Successful businesses don't shutter because they are only making a small initial profit, likewise savvy investors learn to wait out lean returns until the big payoff.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-02-16 @ 01:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    28,659

    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I strongly advocate a sense of community. I believe that anyone who wants the benefits of society needs to make his contribution. I shiver a little bit, though, when I read phrases like 'collective identity'.
    Patriotism, Christendom, Pax Romana, etca, etca. I see no problem with such concepts, so long as they are not taken to irrational extremes.

    The current problem, unfortunately, is that much of the Western World seems to have taken exactly the opposite approach. They simply do not care about anything beyond their own (often shallow, hedonistic, and self-serving) petty desires. They have little to no allegiance to anything other than themselves.

    I believe that no-one can tell me 'what's good for society'. That's a road that spirals into disaster. I believe that society is healthiest, the community strongest, when the rights of individuals come first. 'What's good for society' will naturally follow.
    We will have to wait and see. I would not, however; say that current trends give me much hope where such matters are concerned.

  4. #14
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I will give you a perfect example. A potential client years ago "took a walk" after I spent about three days putting together health coverage for him. I got the numbers to less than 300$ and a moderate deductible which should have been more than affordable for a dual income family with no children, the guy overextended, everything he and his wife owned carried a debt and they couldn't afford the premium. The sad thing is, should one of them fallen ill, they would have been in a financial catastrophe and everything would have evaporated anyway, but, like you stated "you can lead a horse...........".
    I am not in the best situation either, after spending nearly 15 years building a life, only to start over with basically nothing this time last year.

    while things are working out for me pretty nicely (got a good place to live, decent job, starting a new family, etc) I got a lot of other things I need to continue to work on. What this means is that I am going back to college in an attempt to increase my income in a degree that fits well with my experience. However, I am fortunate in that I am able to. What concerns me is those who never got the break I did. For most people, what I went through is the start of a downward spiral. I will say that I put a ton of work into my life over the last year, but I also had plenty of fortunate breaks as well, nobody can do it alone (in my case, I tend to go pray for something, then either forget about it or convince myself it wont happen, go focus on something else only to realize later, I got exactly what I ask for, I never seem to be able to learn, I am like the worst religious dude, ever). the sad fact is that many people are simply too poor to save for retirement these days. Probably the best thing we can do as a society is admit some level of defeat and roll back some laws and lower expectations to have a life style that is closer to the 50s, but in many communities, that's become illegal in our optimism.

    This is what worries me about a lot of the programs where we leave things to the citizenry. studies have shown that we are by nature short term thinkers and I honestly think programs like 401k are simply incompatible with human nature and a lot of the goals we have for society. as a whole, humans suck at liberty and always will. Its unfortunate and i wish it wasn't the case, but i also believe that no amount of education, reeducation, pointing out moral failings, or any other purely informational tactics will ever amount to squat. I would love to take your view of humanity, but I think it is simply unrealistic and parts of the human experience will never achieve the levels of responsibility and ownership that many conservatives expect. Nor has it ever truly occurred in history when people take more than a passing glance.

    all in all, my POV sucks, but I think its accurate. Pretty much, I believe that retirement is a thing of the past. Even a seemingly normal thing that would have been a slam dunk ten years ago, like going back to college like I am planning to do carries huge risks even for jobs that are waiting to be filled, like hard core engineering jobs.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 01-20-14 at 02:25 PM.

  5. #15
    Question authority
    Grand Mal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    on an island off the left coast of Canada
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    16,468
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Patriotism, Christendom, Pax Romana, etca, etca. I see no problem with such concepts, so long as they are no taken to irrational extremes.

    The current problem, unfortunately, is that much of the Western World seems to have taken exactly the opposite approach. They simply do not care about anything beyond their own (often shallow, hedonistic, and self-serving) petty desires. They have little to no allegiance to anything other than themselves.



    We will have to wait and see. I would not, however; say that current trends give me much hope where such matters are concerned.
    I know your concerns.
    Not wanting to open Pandora's box, but I think the current trends that cause concern are society drifting away from solid liberal values. To engineer is human, and there's been too much 'management' of society. We need to return to basic principles and adhere to them and not try to guide and correct and supervise and administer so much.
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
    -John Stuart Mill-

  6. #16
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I am not in the best situation either, after spending nearly 15 years building a life, only to start over with basically nothing this time last year.

    while things are working out for me pretty nicely (got a good place to live, decent job, starting a new family, etc) I got a lot of other things I need to continue to work on. What this means is that I am going back to college in an attempt to increase my income in a degree that fits well with my experience. However, I am fortunate in that I am able to. What concerns me is those who never got the break I did. For most people, what I went through is the start of a downward spiral. I will say that I put a ton of work into my life over the last year, but I also had plenty of fortunate breaks as well, nobody can do it alone. the sad fact is that many people are simply too poor to save for retirement these days. Probably the best thing we can do as a society is admit some level of defeat and roll back some laws and lower expectations to have a life style that is closer to the 50s, but in many communities, that's become illegal in our optimism.
    You're doing it the right way, you had a setback and are handling it. The couple in my example were just "not planning" with everything else going for them, not planning these days might was well be planning to fail.

    This is what worries me about a lot of the programs where we leave things to the citizenry. studies have shown that we are by nature short term thinkers and I honestly think programs like 401k are simply incompatible with human nature and a lot of the goals we have for society. as a whole, humans suck at liberty and always will. Its unfortunate and i wish it wasn't the case, but i also believe that no amount of education, reeducation, pointing out moral failings, or any other purely informational tactics will ever amount to squat. I would love to take your view of humanity, but I think it is simply unrealistic and parts of the human experience will never achieve the levels of responsibility and ownership that many conservatives expect. Nor has it ever truly occurred in history when people take more than a passing glance.
    The programs IMHO are fine, the problem is people not taking professional advice, every single one of the plans has a fund manager, and I don't think I've ever dealt with an organization that didn't have a benefits department to advise their employees. Unfortunately, some people don't take advice, but I am of the opinion that you just can't protect people from themselves. Don't get me wrong, if there were a better answer I'd be all for it, but my own experience has been that people can be their own worst enemy no matter how much you try to help, when I was the professional I would take hours of my time to present a solution to clients only for them to object on silly grounds like "Well, I was planning on getting a new Suburban this year, maybe next year" or things of that nature. Clients tended to have a plan, but it wasn't a plan for growth, more like a plan for acquisition which can be a short term gain with a harsh long term loss.


    all in all, my POV sucks, but I think its accurate. Pretty much, I believe that retirement is a thing of the past. Even a seemingly normal thing that would have been a slam dunk ten years ago, like going back to college like I am planning to do carries huge risks even for jobs that are waiting to be filled, like hard core engineering jobs.
    The only thing we can do is make a plan, plans aren't guarantees though.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  7. #17
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    The programs IMHO are fine, the problem is people not taking professional advice, every single one of the plans has a fund manager, and I don't think I've ever dealt with an organization that didn't have a benefits department to advise their employees. Unfortunately, some people don't take advice, but I am of the opinion that you just can't protect people from themselves. Don't get me wrong, if there were a better answer I'd be all for it, but my own experience has been that people can be their own worst enemy no matter how much you try to help, when I was the professional I would take hours of my time to present a solution to clients only for them to object on silly grounds like "Well, I was planning on getting a new Suburban this year, maybe next year" or things of that nature. Clients tended to have a plan, but it wasn't a plan for growth, more like a plan for acquisition which can be a short term gain with a harsh long term loss.
    I think we are looking at two sides of the same coin here. The brain is pretty much wired to look to short term risks and pleasurable gains. In tribal times, such behaviors would keep us alive. our love of sugar and sweet foods is a great example, in nature that's hard to come by, but not any more, so as humans we regress to the LCD (as we always do) and make ourselves fat. In more complex societies, its a detriment. The problem is that humanity only has some much autonomy and will power from its own instincts, thus I believe any successful social engineering, like 401k or whatever we come up with in our future needs a bit of pokeyoke to account for our natures. We are too optimistic about ourselves and our abilities. The ideal of human choice is misunderstood, I think, because its based on philosophical grounds from 400-500 years ago and not modern neuroscience, which is painting a far different picture.

  8. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-02-16 @ 01:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    28,659

    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    I know your concerns.
    Not wanting to open Pandora's box, but I think the current trends that cause concern are society drifting away from solid liberal values.
    That would depend upon how one defines the term.

    I take it that you are referring to the word in its more "classical" form? If so, that is an idea I can absolutely get behind.

    I believe that some of the ideology's premises are flawed (which is a large part of the reason for our current conundrum in the first place), but its intentions are undeniably noble. The same cannot be said for many of its more modern aberrations.

    To engineer is human, and there's been too much 'management' of society. We need to return to basic principles and adhere to them and not try to guide and correct and supervise and administer so much.
    I agree. Less intervention in public matters is often more. Our society will ultimately sink or swim on its own merits.

    Frankly, it is pretty damn hard to successfully "supervise and administer" public attitudes and cultural ideas anyway. Far more interested regimes than our own have tried and failed miserably.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 01-20-14 at 02:41 PM.

  9. #19
    Irremovable Intelligence
    Removable Mind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    23,500

    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    And you don't see how this could result in the very problems he described?

    Looking out for "number one" is all well and good, but there has to be some room in the equation for notions like "civic duty" and collective identity as well. By and large, our current society lacks this, precisely because of the amount of emphasis we put on "individualism" above all else.

    This has caused innumerable problems, and created a sense of unjustifiable entitlement among much of our population.

    After all, what's good for the individual isn't necessarily good for society in general. A lot of times, even what an individual thinks is good for themselves turns out to often be anything but on a long term basis.

    Most human beings are hardly what you could describe as being "wise" or "careful," in case you haven't noticed.
    Mr. Thomas. Your predestined mission in life must surely be to enlighten humanity about its darkness and its hopeless state of futility. How do you wake up knowing that humanity's journey offers nothing more than a bleak, sterile, and pointless existence?

  10. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-02-16 @ 01:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    28,659

    Re: adults and responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Mr. Thomas. Your predestined mission in life must surely be to enlighten humanity about its darkness and its hopeless state of futility. How do you wake up knowing that humanity's journey offers nothing more than a bleak, sterile, and pointless existence?
    I speak only the pragmatic truth. Human beings do best when working towards something greater than themselves.

Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •