View Poll Results: Multiculturalism or Melting pot?

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  • Multiculturalism

    8 18.60%
  • Melting pot

    27 62.79%
  • I can't make up my mind

    1 2.33%
  • Other

    7 16.28%
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Thread: Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

  1. #31
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    Re: Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Nationalism and xenophobia can go hand-in-hand. That being said, nationalism is good. The melting pot concept is actually quite damned liberal, really. It somehow suggests that groups of foreigners can come together and join the collective, free from the labels of the past, seen as equals. That doesn't seem to be a national motto all that often elsewhere. At least, that was half​ the intention. The other half was certainly less than glamorous.
    Well whatever it is, I don't like it. If we're talking about adults, then they have the right to speak whatever language they want, vote however they want, take whatever job they want, dress however they want, etc.

    The idea that they should assimilate to some arbitrary norm is patronizing and robs them of their god-given dignity.

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    Re: Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Well whatever it is, I don't like it. If we're talking about adults, then they have the right to speak whatever language they want, vote however they want, take whatever job they want, dress however they want, etc.

    The idea that they should assimilate to some arbitrary norm is patronizing and robs them of their god-given dignity.
    Part of it is patronizing. That's the whole point. Each nation-state you visit damned well better think that it is unique, carries with it an identity that you have to belong to in order to fit in. Mainstream multiculturalists in the United States have hardly removed themselves from that notion. All they did was modify it to a small extent.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Part of it is patronizing. That's the whole point. Each nation-state you visit damned well better think that it is unique, carries with it an identity that you have to belong to in order to fit in.
    "Fitting in" is pretty low on my priority list. Any attempt to force me to "fit in" via legislation is immoral and against natural law.

    And that goes for every other immigrant as well.... Mexican, European, African, Asian, etc.

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    Re: Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    This is a thread about preferences, not forced obedience.
    Ought it become socially expected? If so, then that is enforcement.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    "Fitting in" is pretty low on my priority list. Any attempt to force me to "fit in" via legislation is immoral and against natural law.

    And that goes for every other immigrant as well.... Mexican, European, African, Asian, etc.
    They don't have to do it by legislation. They do it by culture. Whether the marketplace is English, the absorption of the national holidays, the speeches, the mythology of the country. It's all part of the abstract attempt to foster a collective identity, which in part is done to modify or remove certain previous societal preferences. It's hardly sinister. It just is.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    100% melting pot. There should be no multiculturalism whatsoever. People need to come together, take the best parts of various cultures and put them together into a superior whole.
    Good luck with that. You know who else talked like that? The Nazis. Mind the company you keep.

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    Re: Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Good luck with that. You know who else talked like that? The Nazis. Mind the company you keep.
    Except they didn't. That whole Germanic supremacy thing didn't encourage other cultures to contribute to the Reich.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Please, choose sides.

    I for one who wants different cultures but I also think they should stay apart, not mix together in a Tower of Babylon. For example, If one wants to imigrate to a country, one should adopt the culture, not try to impose his/hers on the locals. What do you think?
    I think that you're hoping for an impossibility. Nothing short of an event that ends all mass media (most especially the internet) and slows international travel to a crawl can stop the mixing of the cultures. And that's the way it's always been - when people moved to a different nation, they tended to go where there were people like themselves. That's how we got Chinatowns and Little Italys and Little Havanas and even an occasional Little Mogadishu.

    But you really shouldn't gripe about the mixing of the cultures, because English is now the international language. There's over two hundred people in China who are learning English (if poorly) as you read this. Most nations have their traffic signs in major cities in both the local language and English...and often just in English. In fact, it is normal for English to be taught in elementary schools in much of the world.

    And it's not just the spread of the English language. When I go overseas to major cities, I can find almost any American fast-food joint I want (though they're often changed to fit the local expectations of flavor, such as the sweeter meat of the burgers in Manila). Starbuck's is almost everywhere. And in Manila, when you dial 9111111 (like we would if we're REALLY in danger here in America) you get - wait for it - Pizza Hut. And I'm not making any of this up.

    So it's really unrealistic to hope that the cultures would not mix - they simply will, especially given the advance of mass media and travel. No one could stop it if they tried, short of a general thermonuclear exchange. I would suggest, then, to adapt, and to learn to enjoy the ride.
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    Re: Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    They don't have to do it by legislation. They do it by culture. Whether the marketplace is English, the absorption of the national holidays, the speeches, the mythology of the country. It's all part of the abstract attempt to foster a collective identity, which in part is done to modify or remove certain previous societal preferences. It's hardly sinister. It just is.
    I have first hand knowledge and experience with this, so let me share some examples.

    When I was 6 years old and growing up in Colorado, my teacher asked my mom to come and speak to the class about Sweden and our different customs and all of that. She did. A few days later, as I was going to sit with my friends for lunch, one of the kids stood up and said "Only AMERICANS are allowed to eat here." Everyone else joined in, and I had to eat lunch by myself.

    Luckily, kids have short memories and by the next day I was hanging out and eating lunch with my friends again. Turns out what had happened is my friend had gone home talking about Sweden, and his redneck dad told him "America is the greatest country on earth" and the kid took it the wrong way... and the other kids were just following the ring leader.

    As a kid, I always felt embarrassed by my parents accent and I never wanted them to speak Swedish in public. I hated feeling so different from everyone else and I was jealous of all the kids who were just normal Americans.

    When I was 15, my family moved from Colorado to Chile in South America. I was easily a head taller than everyone else, and clearly there was a racial difference too. I can't say it was all bad - the girls loved me and everybody treated me like I had money even if I didn't - but EVERYONE treated me like an outsider. It culminated one evening when I was outside waiting in line for a concert with a couple of my hispanic American friends when a gang of Chileans came up to me "Oye GRINGO!"

    I was jumped by 10+ thugs just because of the color of my skin and because I was speaking English. I fought my way out of it but not before fracturing a couple bones and getting cut up pretty good.

    When I was 17, my family and I moved back to Sweden. You would think that would be a good thing, but having left Sweden at the age of 3 I had an accent, and I couldn't read or write at my grade level in that language. So rather than attend a Swedish public school I attended a school largely populated by British expats. There, it was not the other students who gave me a hard time, but the teachers. The way our classes were structured, I had the same 5 teachers for my two years there. My English teacher was british and must have had a personal vendetta against Americans because he took to correcting my pronunciation whenever I said anything in an American accent. He also marked off any time I spelled something the American way (example "gray" instead of "grey," "color" instead of "colour," "tire" instead of "tyre" etc) and so I had a difficult time making it through his class.

    When I complained and said I needed good grades to get in to college, he simply said "If you colonials want to spell TYRE incorrectly you can do it on our own continent."


    You see, it's a dirty aspect of human nature but whether you're American, Chilean, or European, people don't like outsiders.

    Well, I don't like people who mistreat outsiders.

    I've since grown up, and I've come to embrace my Swedish heritage, my height, my strength, my American spelling, and everything people tried to beat out of me when I was growing up. Those things are part of what make me who I am and I wouldn't give them up for anything.

    I have a special place in my heart for Mexican migrants and for the immigrants in Europe who come from Africa and other places because I understand what they go through. I want so see them treated with dignity and I wish them the same success I have had.

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    Re: Multiculturalism vs Melting pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Which is rather interesting really. In the 1980s and 1990s, multiculturalism was all the rage, either for or against. That's why I am somewhat amused when I read "I think since then," when in fact the "since then" was a while before she took that examination.
    It very well could be. But for the most part I didn't see it.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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