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Sophistication,honesty, or a bit of both?

What is more important

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LaMidRighter

LaMidRighter

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Okay so I am curious, there has been for years a slight against people who are rural in nature and aren't necessarily the best educated or most traveled people. So here is the question, is it better to be worldly but dishonest or unsophisticated but good at heart? The reason I ask is that I've been thinking of a really rural parish in which my folks owned a camp for years prior to hurricane Rita, some of my favorite type of people lived along the route but they were not scholarly types, just people living their lives and being the best people they could be..............salt of the Earth types in my opinion and worth thousands of "scholarly peers".
 
LaMidRighter said:
Okay so I am curious, there has been for years a slight against people who are rural in nature and aren't necessarily the best educated or most traveled people. So here is the question, is it better to be worldly but dishonest or unsophisticated but good at heart? The reason I ask is that I've been thinking of a really rural parish in which my folks owned a camp for years prior to hurricane Rita, some of my favorite type of people lived along the route but they were not scholarly types, just people living their lives and being the best people they could be..............salt of the Earth types in my opinion and worth thousands of "scholarly peers".
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Problem is, that without the sophistication we would often make decisions that are well meant but catastrophic.
 
joG said:
Problem is, that without the sophistication we would often make decisions that are well meant but catastrophic.
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Are you saying that sophistication eliminates the possibility of bad decisions?

Please frame your response in terms of the sophistication of Washington DC and the litany of catastrophes that are decisioned into existence on an hourly basis.
 
code1211 said:
Are you saying that sophistication eliminates the possibility of bad decisions?

Please frame your response in terms of the sophistication of Washington DC and the litany of catastrophes that are decisioned into existence on an hourly basis.
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I was thinking of a discussion in this forum from a few days ago. The decent economic prescriptions were such that they were well intentioned but lacked the sophistication of formal economic knowledge. Following their prescription would cause desperate conditions in the long run. Though what good meaning honest people would think right the lack of sophistication or in this case basic formal education would achieve Satan's delight.
 
From observation, and please know that I don't care much for over generalizations, it is those lacking worldliness who are the ones who care, but mostly about themselves, if that.
From inner cities to Eastern KY to the LA bayous, streets littered with filth, dogs and cats running amok, houses and buildings barely holding up.
Scholarly types, the more sophisticated ones, tend to keep neat and tidy.
Now, I am not judging, saying its good or bad, or that I know what's going on behind the walls. But I dare to say that, its all fine and well to mind your own business and live any way you please, if you are one person in the middle of nowhere. But if you live anywhere near others, where others can and must interact with you, please adhere to some sort of standard. It is you who lowers or rises my property value, trashes or beautifies an area in which we live, makes it enjoyable or a nightmare to take a stroll with my dogs, depending on how many stray dogs roam the neighborhood.
is it better to be worldly but dishonest or unsophisticated but good at heart?
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It depends. Good hearted and utterly selfish, or sophisticated and caring about others as well.
People don't really like being told what to do, scream for least interference in their lives, but those who lack common courtesy are really the ones who should be told.
What works well? Army housing. Strict adherence to guidelines or else, whether you come from rural or more fancy homes. Learn it, live it, keep it, for only if you care about others as much as yourself, are you what you think you are.
 
joG said:
I was thinking of a discussion in this forum from a few days ago. The decent economic prescriptions were such that they were well intentioned but lacked the sophistication of formal economic knowledge. Following their prescription would cause desperate conditions in the long run. Though what good meaning honest people would think right the lack of sophistication or in this case basic formal education would achieve Satan's delight.
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Economics is not that complicated a thing to figure out. On the household level, if there is not enough money to go around, you need to get more money into that little economy to make it run right. This can be accomplished by stopping some of the outflow or increasing the income.

Take this to the national level and the same thing applies. We can immediately decrease the outflow by stopping the purchase of foreign oil.

There are two sources to increase the income: Free up the reserves of the those who are holding money domestically and increase exports.

Domestic investors are collectively terrorized by the current uncertainties in this economy and part of that is due to the government and part is due to the pessimism that pervades the culture.

Governmentally, the Administration needs to remove the stops and allow the Keystone Pipeline, commit to a program of creating a viable method to burn coal cleanly and commit to a policy that ends oil imports by 2020. These three policies would create an economic boom like the 90's. This would in effect increase the income to the nation.

Jobs like the ones created by these policies would be jobs that are paid with money from "outside" the system. Every job like these creates another 5 jobs to support them. Take a look at North Dakota where the workers at McDonalds start the first day at $15.00/hour. They are not paid by the oil companies, but they are paid with the money that TRICKLES DOWN from the oil companies.

Taxing and redistributing is like raising the allowance of one household child while reducing the allowance of another. No actual gain there, just an administrative system of penalty and reward based on capricious and immoral stupidity with no future.
 
code1211 said:
Economics is not that complicated a thing to figure out. On the household level, if there is not enough money to go around, you need to get more money into that little economy to make it run right. This can be accomplished by stopping some of the outflow or increasing the income.

Take this to the national level and the same thing applies. We can immediately decrease the outflow by stopping the purchase of foreign oil.

There are two sources to increase the income: Free up the reserves of the those who are holding money domestically and increase exports.

Domestic investors are collectively terrorized by the current uncertainties in this economy and part of that is due to the government and part is due to the pessimism that pervades the culture.

Governmentally, the Administration needs to remove the stops and allow the Keystone Pipeline, commit to a program of creating a viable method to burn coal cleanly and commit to a policy that ends oil imports by 2020. These three policies would create an economic boom like the 90's. This would in effect increase the income to the nation.

Jobs like the ones created by these policies would be jobs that are paid with money from "outside" the system. Every job like these creates another 5 jobs to support them. Take a look at North Dakota where the workers at McDonalds start the first day at $15.00/hour. They are not paid by the oil companies, but they are paid with the money that TRICKLES DOWN from the oil companies.

Taxing and redistributing is like raising the allowance of one household child while reducing the allowance of another. No actual gain there, just an administrative system of penalty and reward based on capricious and immoral stupidity with no future.
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In general terms that sounds fine.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Okay so I am curious, there has been for years a slight against people who are rural in nature and aren't necessarily the best educated or most traveled people. So here is the question, is it better to be worldly but dishonest or unsophisticated but good at heart? The reason I ask is that I've been thinking of a really rural parish in which my folks owned a camp for years prior to hurricane Rita, some of my favorite type of people lived along the route but they were not scholarly types, just people living their lives and being the best people they could be..............salt of the Earth types in my opinion and worth thousands of "scholarly peers".
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Being unsophisticated and good at heart, but only because of the dishonesty of the first one.

I think in general treating each other kindly and having worldly knowledge are both good traits. I also don't think you'll find unsophisticated people more likely to treat everyone kindly than well educated people.
 
Anagram said:
Being unsophisticated and good at heart, but only because of the dishonesty of the first one.

I think in general treating each other kindly and having worldly knowledge are both good traits. I also don't think you'll find unsophisticated people more likely to treat everyone kindly than well educated people.
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Definitely. I am speaking of a specific mindset of rural people that I would run across when my folks had a little getaway, they were some of the nicest people you would ever meet but weren't traveled or further educated. I've seen some very unrefined and uneducated people that are the absolute worst, and I have seen some well traveled people who are an absolute joy to hang out with.
 
joG said:
Problem is, that without the sophistication we would often make decisions that are well meant but catastrophic.
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I can agree to that, then again there are folks who overestimate their own experience and knowledge and have the same catastrophic results. I've found that unsophisticated people who are also nice tend to be modest, so they are more likely to do their thing and stay out of the way of others. Just my opinion on the latter though.
 
I spent the first 5 years of my life in a tiny cabin up twenty miles of dirt road on the forested slopes of a volcano.

I think it is quite possible to be scholarly AND rural,myself.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Okay so I am curious, there has been for years a slight against people who are rural in nature and aren't necessarily the best educated or most traveled people. So here is the question, is it better to be worldly but dishonest or unsophisticated but good at heart? The reason I ask is that I've been thinking of a really rural parish in which my folks owned a camp for years prior to hurricane Rita, some of my favorite type of people lived along the route but they were not scholarly types, just people living their lives and being the best people they could be..............salt of the Earth types in my opinion and worth thousands of "scholarly peers".
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I lived both. Born and raised on a farm, I am now retired and living in the country. Along the way I have lived in some pretty big cities. I can say I much to be around and prefer the good neighborly country folks. I suppose you could call them unsophisticated. But I wouldn't say lacking in knowledge. Now that knowledge may not be the same as a city folk. It may be more down to earth and the kind of knowledge that is put to use day after day.

I guess I made my choice, I can do without the city.
 
Perotista said:
I lived both. Born and raised on a farm, I am now retired and living in the country. Along the way I have lived in some pretty big cities. I can say I much to be around and prefer the good neighborly country folks. I suppose you could call them unsophisticated. But I wouldn't say lacking in knowledge. Now that knowledge may not be the same as a city folk. It may be more down to earth and the kind of knowledge that is put to use day after day.

I guess I made my choice, I can do without the city.
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Oh I agree. I'm not in any way saying those people are stupid, just didn't have the college degree or "sophisticated" travel experience that I've personally seen people hold above everything in life including being a decent human being. I like the people of my city, we're not too big or small, but those country folks, many areas had less than 2K people, some places had maybe dozens were people with a lot of heart.
 
Believe it or not there was a time when comportment was tied to your education. Far too often today I see "educated" people who have the manners of a rabid baboon.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Oh I agree. I'm not in any way saying those people are stupid, just didn't have the college degree or "sophisticated" travel experience that I've personally seen people hold above everything in life including being a decent human being. I like the people of my city, we're not too big or small, but those country folks, many areas had less than 2K people, some places had maybe dozens were people with a lot of heart.
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Yeah, it is a completely different life style. I guess some people need the excitement and the entertainment a big city has to offer. I don't, I much prefer the down home atmosphere. Besides I hate crowds and people living on top of one another. I value my space.
 
LaMidRighter said:
is it better to be worldly but dishonest or unsophisticated but good at heart? The reason I ask is that I've been thinking of a really rural parish in which my folks owned a camp for years prior to hurricane Rita, some of my favorite type of people lived along the route but they were not scholarly types, just people living their lives and being the best people they could be..............salt of the Earth types in my opinion and worth thousands of "scholarly peers".
Click to expand...

Given the two choices, I would go with unsophisticated but good at heart. That being said, there are scholarly people who are honest, and there are rural people who are not, so it really seems to depend on the individual. I know plenty of rural folks who are very intelligent, even if they didn't pursue higher education, so "scholarly" itself isn't any real measure of worth to me. I like who I like, regardless of educational background, or their rural or urban lifestyle.
 
lizzie said:
Given the two choices, I would go with unsophisticated but good at heart. That being said, there are scholarly people who are honest, and there are rural people who are not, so it really seems to depend on the individual. I know plenty of rural folks who are very intelligent, even if they didn't pursue higher education, so "scholarly" itself isn't any real measure of worth to me. I like who I like, regardless of educational background, or their rural or urban lifestyle.
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Same here, but I was remembering those people last night for whatever reason and when I hear some people slight "flyover country" I think it bugs me a bit that some dismiss good people for where they live or how much they studied, the way they speak, etc.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Same here, but I was remembering those people last night for whatever reason and when I hear some people slight "flyover country" I think it bugs me a bit that some dismiss good people for where they live or how much they studied, the way they speak, etc.
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Oh, most definitely. I've talked to a couple of people on the phone (that I know from online), who have never met me, and who are from other regions of the country. They are shocked, and have actually asked me if the accent is real, or if I'm faking it, as if my accent has anything whatsoever to do with my level of intelligence. There just seems to be a lot of people who are willing to dismiss you, if you don't sound like they do, or don't have the same educational level. Some of the most intelligent people I know are from southern Louisiana, and for the most part, they aren't highly educated. My sister, who lives in Oklahoma, and sounds even more "southern" than I, is one of the most intelligent people I know. There seems to be a general impression that southerners are stupid, which is no more true, than thinking that everyone from north of the Mason-Dixon line is intelligent.
 
lizzie said:
Oh, most definitely. I've talked to a couple of people on the phone (that I know from online), who have never met me, and who are from other regions of the country. They are shocked, and have actually asked me if the accent is real, or if I'm faking it, as if my accent has anything whatsoever to do with my level of intelligence. There just seems to be a lot of people who are willing to dismiss you, if you don't sound like they do, or don't have the same educational level. Some of the most intelligent people I know are from southern Louisiana, and for the most part, they aren't highly educated. My sister, who lives in Oklahoma, and sounds even more "southern" than I, is one of the most intelligent people I know. There seems to be a general impression that southerners are stupid, which is no more true, than thinking that everyone from north of the Mason-Dixon line is intelligent.
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Yep. In fact I get people here who ask where I was from, because of the broadcasting curriculum I had to learn to speak with a flat Midwestern accent to be universally acceptable should I have chosen to pursue it. We do have a lot of very intelligent people in the south, one thing I tell people is I actually laugh at regional arrogance, because if someone were to take a southerner lightly in a debate it would be a huge mistake from a preparation standpoint.
 
LaMidRighter said:
Okay so I am curious, there has been for years a slight against people who are rural in nature and aren't necessarily the best educated or most traveled people.
Click to expand...

I've definitely observed this same slight and agree that it's usually uncalled for.

Conversely, I've also observed the slight that people from the city are unable to care for themselves and well. . . cold hearted.
 
joG said:
Problem is, that without the sophistication we would often make decisions that are well meant but catastrophic.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. I know a guy who, intellectually, is as dumb as a rock, but I envy his day-to-day common sense.

Mileage may vary according to the individual.
 
joG said:
Problem is, that without the sophistication we would often make decisions that are well meant but catastrophic.
Click to expand...

Do you have any examples? I'm not sure what type of sophistication is normally required to make sound decisions. That sounds to me like a pretty broad definition of sophistication.
 
lizzie said:
Oh, most definitely. I've talked to a couple of people on the phone (that I know from online), who have never met me, and who are from other regions of the country. They are shocked, and have actually asked me if the accent is real, or if I'm faking it, as if my accent has anything whatsoever to do with my level of intelligence. There just seems to be a lot of people who are willing to dismiss you, if you don't sound like they do, or don't have the same educational level. Some of the most intelligent people I know are from southern Louisiana, and for the most part, they aren't highly educated. My sister, who lives in Oklahoma, and sounds even more "southern" than I, is one of the most intelligent people I know. There seems to be a general impression that southerners are stupid, which is no more true, than thinking that everyone from north of the Mason-Dixon line is intelligent.
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It's reversed where I am. The Northerners are stereotyped as being the thick ones.
 
Perotista said:
I lived both. Born and raised on a farm, I am now retired and living in the country. Along the way I have lived in some pretty big cities. I can say I much to be around and prefer the good neighborly country folks. I suppose you could call them unsophisticated. But I wouldn't say lacking in knowledge. Now that knowledge may not be the same as a city folk. It may be more down to earth and the kind of knowledge that is put to use day after day.

I guess I made my choice, I can do without the city.
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That reminds me of a pretty funny situation I watched unfold in a rural mountain town several years back.

We were eating lunch at a small hole-in-the-wall place, which happened to have a few wines to choose from, when a group of 'well-meaning suburbanites' walked in the door. They were obviously touring the mountain towns and feeling very superior to everyone they came across.

When the lady running the place walked over to their table to take their order, they decide to start a conversation which went along these lines:

Suburbanites: "We're on a trip through the mountains, from Sacramento.

Lady running the place: "That's nice." (obviously not as impressed with Sacramento as the suburbanites were)

Suburbanites: "This place is so quaint, did you grow up here and live here your whole life?"

Lady running the place: "I'm from Oakland, near Jack London Square. I moved here to get away from the city."

At that moment, the suburbanites became quiet and lost their air of superiority. It was pretty great, I hate people with superiority complexes.
 
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