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What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of America?

What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of America?


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Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

That is only true until it's not, which it never is. Every single malthusian prediction of the past century has been soundly and decisively rebuffed by advances in technology, efficiency, and the contribution of human genius. There is no reason to believe that the multitude of approaches now under serious development and commercialization will not once again yield for us the same liberating results that centuries of similar prior accomplishments have yielded. The malthusian is always wrong because the malthusian treats humans as nothing more than mouths to feed, bodies to clothe, and resources to consume. It is why they have always missed the great developments that urge our civilization forward.

There's no evidence that our innovations are going to work to the same level that the Green Revolution did.

You haven't refuted anything I've said, you've just spouted the same old industry propaganda that's been spoonfed to you. Either that, or you work for them. :shrug:

Our system is too complex and interdependent to predict exactly when the crisis will happen, which is the only grounds on which people like you dismiss the Malthusian idea. I don't care about the projections, I care about the idea behind them. We cannot indefinitely keep breeding humans and follow the growth model, and expect all of us to be able to live happy, satisfying lives. At some point the imbalances we are creating will take care of us.

Technology creates more problems that we need more technology to solve, and no technology will increase the earth's resource bounty which we are currently harvesting at 1.5 earths per year. So keep putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la". That kind of denial is only fast tracking us to the very problems that we will eventually have to come to terms with anyway.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

Right. Because America's the only country on earth up **** creek with debt.

Of course we are not the only ones with high debt, but we are the only one with this amount of debt. And all one has to do is see what countries are over their head in debt and look at how they are doing.

There's that small matter of being on the tail-end of the meltdown. You probably didn't factor that in, insignificant distraction that it is.

We're not at the tail-end of a meltdown we are leading it.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

Of course we are not the only ones with high debt, but we are the only one with this amount of debt. And all one has to do is see what countries are over their head in debt and look at how they are doing.

We're not at the tail-end of a meltdown we are leading it.
The Meltdown. The same one that could cause even major world powers to almost sink without a trace, and precipitate a rash of civil uprisings in lesser developed regions of the world. Did you believe we'd bounce back from that overnight?

How would a country the size of Malta be expected to carry the same level of debt as the US?
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

There's no evidence that our innovations are going to work to the same level that the Green Revolution did.

You haven't refuted anything I've said, you've just spouted the same old industry propaganda that's been spoonfed to you. Either that, or you work for them. :shrug:

Our system is too complex and interdependent to predict exactly when the crisis will happen, which is the only grounds on which people like you dismiss the Malthusian idea. I don't care about the projections, I care about the idea behind them. We cannot indefinitely keep breeding humans and follow the growth model, and expect all of us to be able to live happy, satisfying lives. At some point the imbalances we are creating will take care of us.

Technology creates more problems that we need more technology to solve, and no technology will increase the earth's resource bounty which we are currently harvesting at 1.5 earths per year. So keep putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la". That kind of denial is only fast tracking us to the very problems that we will eventually have to come to terms with anyway.

Neo-Malthusianism is dangerous and it is wrong. It's proponents seem fundamentally unwilling to accept the essential and primary role that human ingenuity must play in alleviating our problems, instead they fetishize restriction and the need to dramatically alter our society.

Take the consumption of resources and over-population, the big thing for Ehrlich and his crew in the 60's-90's. We heard for years about how we were doomed to a resource crush in everything from grain, to water, to copper, to oil & gas. In short collapse was unavoidable. The answer? Population control and state intervention. We needed to adopt measures like China's One Child policy, we needed to provide funding for sterilization efforts, we needed to begin massive intervention to cultivate and safeguard our resources and damn be the organic nature and needs of commercial society. This dismal perspective was encapsulated by the Simon-Ehrlich wager in which Ehrlich bet that the prices of a basked of commodities (copper, chrome, nickel, tungsten, tin) would skyrocket from 1980 to 1990. The high profile bet went in Simon's favor in 1990 as all five commodities fell in value.

Of course they were wrong. As has always happened the needs of civilization (sometimes greased with state support) propelled the changes needed to alleviate ourselves of these problems. We found better ways to reach new caches of resources, we perfected more efficient extraction methods and it doesn't stop with metals, we expanded industrial agriculture and pioneered new methods of crop production with the Green Revolution, we increased access to water by expanding irrigation and digging new aquifers, and on and on.

This remains in my view the prevailing problem of their mind set. In their eyes all too often every new human is another mouth to feed, another body to clothe, another potential problem in waiting. While they should see a new mind, a new member of the labor force, a new leader, a new artist, in other words: potential. For example in the long term I think one of the greatest developments in the history of modern civilization has been the lifting of China from the dregs of the third world. We are only just beginning to feel the impact of millions of new scientists, engineers, and artists. Imagine magnifying that by similar developments in the rest of the developing world and you could transform the planet.

The same types of innovations that lifted us above our problems in the 20th Century will form the blueprint for the 21st. The rise of cheap desalination, innovations in biotechnology and GMO's, more sophisticated extraction methods for rare earths and other minerals, new deposits of oil and gas, revolutions in battery technology, perhaps even developments in renewables like Solar (not at present), and so much more. We live in a century of fantastic possibility. Our only realistic hope is that our genius measures up to the task. Planning for massive global legislation and controls for carbon, water management, or whatever the issue of the day may be is not only unrealistic but counter-productive as it retards growth which breeds the dynamism that allows that aforementioned genius to rise to the surface.

The Earth has a mass of six trillion trillion kilograms and we've only scratched the surface (literally) of its bounty. How did we avoid peak oil? By innovating new methods for reaching deeper and more inaccessible fields and by creating new tools for increasing efficiency from existing ones. It is a process we will continue to repeat for other resources because the raw materials are there in abundant quantities. Where there is a need a way will be found as it always has.

We may not be able to indefinitely produce humans but call me back in a few billion years then I'll worry about it. In the interrum we have the entirety of our planet to draw on not to mention our solar system.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

If the liberal Dems have their way, the future of America is to become a city-state subservient to a one-world U.N. government and its laws and policies.

If the conservative Repubs have their way, the future of America is their country’s government officials being puppets of international conglomerate agendas corrupting the American democratic process.

Sadly, a bit of both futures is here now, which is why politicians' poll ratings are so very dismal.

If either or both of he liberal Dems' and the conservative Repubs' future for America continues, my response to the poll is, obviously, very pessimistic.

And considering many libertarians support both the liberal Dems' social issue positions and the conservative Repubs' fiscal-economic issue positions, they're also part of the problem.

But, if we can get The American Family Political Party to come into existence (http://www.debatepolitics.com/gener...n/182939-american-family-political-party.html) ..

.. My answer to the poll would be, obviously, very optimistic.

Tick tock, my fellow Americans.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

There's no evidence that our innovations are going to work to the same level that the Green Revolution did.

You haven't refuted anything I've said, you've just spouted the same old industry propaganda that's been spoonfed to you. Either that, or you work for them. :shrug:

Our system is too complex and interdependent to predict exactly when the crisis will happen, which is the only grounds on which people like you dismiss the Malthusian idea. I don't care about the projections, I care about the idea behind them. We cannot indefinitely keep breeding humans and follow the growth model, and expect all of us to be able to live happy, satisfying lives. At some point the imbalances we are creating will take care of us.

Technology creates more problems that we need more technology to solve, and no technology will increase the earth's resource bounty which we are currently harvesting at 1.5 earths per year. So keep putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la". That kind of denial is only fast tracking us to the very problems that we will eventually have to come to terms with anyway.

Uh... So the F what? We invented a polio vaccine ergo we need a mechanism for its mass production ergo we need more technological investment ergo we need more resources ergo problem? No. Of course not. Also what are you talking about harvesting at 1.5 Earths a year? There are six trillion, trillion kilograms of matter on this rock.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

The Meltdown. The same one that could cause even major world powers to almost sink without a trace, and precipitate a rash of civil uprisings in lesser developed regions of the world. Did you believe we'd bounce back from that overnight?

How would a country the size of Malta be expected to carry the same level of debt as the US?

I would never expect they would, but that does not mean we are not headed for a meltdown with the size of debt we have and which is growing with no end in sight.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

I would never expect they would, but that does not mean we are not headed for a meltdown with the size of debt we have and which is growing with no end in sight.
Whose sight? There can't be an economist on earth who denies the concept of scarcity. Of course it will end.

Under Capitalism, these phenomena are transitory, being expressions of a cyclical process of Boom and Bust. We'll end up here again after the next upswing. Its inevitable. You have to accept that in choosing an unstable system, it will be....well, unstable. Ever hear of the Great Depression?
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

Whose sight? There can't be an economist on earth who denies the concept of scarcity. Of course it will end.

Under Capitalism, these phenomena are transitory, being expressions of a cyclical process of Boom and Bust. We'll end up here again after the next upswing. Its inevitable. You have to accept that in choosing an unstable system, it will be....well, unstable. Ever hear of the Great Depression?

I'm glad your so optimistic and you point to the Great Depression to back up your optimism. However during that time period our country was not burdened with entitlements and a nanny state giving freebies to anyone with their hand out. Like I said we are 17 trillion in debt and growing with no end in sight of stopping our borrowing let along begin paying it down. This is because entitlements out strip it's revenue.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

Very optimistic. There will be a United States of America in the future.


It's possible that we could talk ourselves out of it though.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

I'm glad your so optimistic and you point to the Great Depression to back up your optimism. However during that time period our country was not burdened with entitlements and a nanny state giving freebies to anyone with their hand out. Like I said we are 17 trillion in debt and growing with no end in sight of stopping our borrowing let along begin paying it down. This is because entitlements out strip it's revenue.
I was pointing to it as an example of how the worst of times give way to calmer seas and vice-versa, in the system we have at present.

If your intent was to demonise welfare provision on the basis of predicting that worse-case scenarios will endure into perpetuity, you might have elected for a tad more candour. Some of us can read between the lines. The term 'austerity measures' is mainly a euphemism, for implementing policies that bring to bear the hammer most ferociously upon on those least capable of withstanding it. Recovery ought rightfully to hinge upon investment,education and job creation, not speculation and scapegoating.

The US will be fine. Your hysteria is at once misplaced and counter-productive.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

I was pointing to it as an example of how the worst of times give way to calmer seas and vice-versa, in the system we have at present.

If your intent was to demonise welfare provision on the basis of predicting that worse-case scenarios will endure into perpetuity, you might have elected for a tad more candour. Some of us can read between the lines. The term 'austerity measures' is mainly a euphemism, for implementing policies that bring to bear the hammer most ferociously upon on those least capable of withstanding it. Recovery ought rightfully to hinge upon investment,education and job creation, not speculation and scapegoating.

The US will be fine. Your hysteria is at once misplaced and counter-productive.

I have said many many times, there are those that think there is an endless supply of money. If the shoe fits............
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

Very optimistic. There will be a United States of America in the future.

I would say that is a true statement, but what it will look like is another matter.

It's possible that we could talk ourselves out of it though.

Try talking your way out of paying back your banker, without going bankrupt.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

I have said many many times, there are those that think there is an endless supply of money. If the shoe fits............
As a Conservative, your part is to pursue restriction and even stasis; this is your ideological prerogative. You can do nothing else while you cleave to this perspective. I understand. But since what amounts to an 'endless supply of money' resides firmly within the grasp of those least susceptible to the measures you champion, we see once more that 'Wing' politics are fundamentally flawed.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

Thanks for taking the time to write all that. I shouldn't have written you off so quickly, I apologize. I'm just so used to getting blasted and trolled that I assumed there was no real logic behind what you were saying.

Responses below.

Neo-Malthusianism is dangerous and it is wrong. It's proponents seem fundamentally unwilling to accept the essential and primary role that human ingenuity must play in alleviating our problems, instead they fetishize restriction and the need to dramatically alter our society.

Well, I'm a not a neo-malthusian. I don't view straight restriction as the answer because it will stifle innovation, but at the same time there are some stark realities we really need to examine here.

Of course they were wrong. As has always happened the needs of civilization (sometimes greased with state support) propelled the changes needed to alleviate ourselves of these problems. We found better ways to reach new caches of resources, we perfected more efficient extraction methods and it doesn't stop with metals, we expanded industrial agriculture and pioneered new methods of crop production with the Green Revolution, we increased access to water by expanding irrigation and digging new aquifers, and on and on.

I have less of a problem with resource extraction than I do how those resources are being inefficiently allocated under the current economic model. Our economies are wasting huge amounts of resources on what is tantamount to short-term luxury. All the developing nations seem to be clamoring for a standard of living en par with American exceptionalism, and there is no way, I mean no way that this planet can sustain that. America uses almost 30% of the world's annual resource harvest yet contains a comparatively lesser amount of the world's population. We should not make this the model for living.

The growth model is defuct. It increasingly cannot provide, not with the way resources and finances are entrenched, and not with money sequestration happening by a select few. It's incredibly difficult to face the next set of human challenges when all of the capital is being held by less than 0.5% of humans, most of whom are driven by some anachronistic impulse to accumulate status.

This remains in my view the prevailing problem of their mind set. In their eyes all too often every new human is another mouth to feed, another body to clothe, another potential problem in waiting. While they should see a new mind, a new member of the labor force, a new leader, a new artist, in other words: potential. For example in the long term I think one of the greatest developments in the history of modern civilization has been the lifting of China from the dregs of the third world. We are only just beginning to feel the impact of millions of new scientists, engineers, and artists. Imagine magnifying that by similar developments in the rest of the developing world and you could transform the planet.

Human creativity is not fostered enough though. Our systems of governance are still following the old industrial model, and we are in a post-industrial world. Children have access to a wide array of interactive multimedia but are expected to sit at desks for 8 hours a day, studying useless indoctrinating crap that has no real world practical value anymore. When they can't or won't perform, they are drugged.

Our problems right now are top-down. If we actually allowed the genius and expertise that has been lying dormant to have more command of the situation, I think we could extricate ourselves; but that's not happening because the people running the show don't care about anything but the next quarter.

As for China... it's one of the foreign nations I lived in for several years as part of my profession. Conformity is so high there that innovation is incredibly stagnant. Most wealthy Asians send their children abroad for education. Most of their innovations are stolen from the west, and then appropriated as their own. People scoff at China's one child policy but their population will be stable at 1.4 billion by 2040 while the western nation will be suffocating in its own numbers. The top problems on this planet are a) the number of humans, and b) the number of humans all demanding the same exorbitant standard of living, completely out of touch with nature c) an economic model based on short term projection only, combined with an inefficient means of distributing new innovation in a timely manner, to ALL PEOPLE.

The same types of innovations that lifted us above our problems in the 20th Century will form the blueprint for the 21st. The rise of cheap desalination, innovations in biotechnology and GMO's, more sophisticated extraction methods for rare earths and other minerals, new deposits of oil and gas, revolutions in battery technology, perhaps even developments in renewables like Solar (not at present), and so much more. We live in a century of fantastic possibility. Our only realistic hope is that our genius measures up to the task. Planning for massive global legislation and controls for carbon, water management, or whatever the issue of the day may be is not only unrealistic but counter-productive as it retards growth which breeds the dynamism that allows that aforementioned genius to rise to the surface.

They're not just "issues of the day" though. There are global food shortages in most of the developing nations, not just due to political corruption but also drastic changes in weather systems, resources shortages, and again a global institutionalized plutocracy that uses the IMF and World Bank to enslave them for resource extraction to fund the aforementioned exhorbitant living standards in the rich nations.

The problem here is largely the western world, always been. Europe and its offshoots just can't stop the colonial non-sense and accept a lesser standard of living. We are living off the backs of everyone else, at the peril of this world's biosphere.

We have Western economies whose indebtedness is built on consumption because the corporate plutocracy retain the lion's share of new productivity and growth. The only way to sustain such an economy was initially with extending credit with Fed policies geared to below inflation rate interest rates. At some point, that increased indebtedness must come to an end. It happened in 2008/9 in the same way it did in 1929. It will soon happen again and there is no credible ammunition left in the Fed or governments' arsenal.

Of all the innovations you mention, the only ones that are not causing environmental devastation are the renewable energy sources. The jury is still out on GMOs. The European studies on GMO corn fed to rates show cancerous results. GMO pollen is suspected in why bee populations are in peril all over the place. There are essentially no long term studies on the safety of GMO in humans, and anytime someone tries to start one they get shut down by corporate powers. So... don't hold your breath on that one.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

The Earth has a mass of six trillion trillion kilograms and we've only scratched the surface (literally) of its bounty. How did we avoid peak oil? By innovating new methods for reaching deeper and more inaccessible fields and by creating new tools for increasing efficiency from existing ones. It is a process we will continue to repeat for other resources because the raw materials are there in abundant quantities. Where there is a need a way will be found as it always has.

Looking at just the earth's mass is myopic. The only thing that is relevant to us is the biosphere. If we continue to destroy it in pursuit of the earth's mass then the huge numbers you quote will be irrelevant. The biosphere exists on a thin slice of the surface, much like bacteria on our skin. If conditions aren't right, we all die. It's not hysteria or political agendas, it's mere scientific fact. All the oil spills, fracking, and fukushima are literally killing the biosphere. Species are dying at unprecedented rates, not because of global warming even, but because of our human waste.

I just don't understand the ideology behind technological elitism that continues to blindly go forward under the assumption that we will always be able to solve our problems with new tech. Technology always provides short term gains and new long term challenges. People often site medical advances for why humans are now living so long, but what's the point of extending the life of someone who is essentially contributing nothing to human advancement, and watches TV all day while stuffing their face?

Sherman123 said:
We may not be able to indefinitely produce humans but call me back in a few billion years then I'll worry about it. In the interrum we have the entirety of our planet to draw on not to mention our solar system.

Translation: don't think about the future, just do what's needed now. I feel personally responsible for future generations of not only humans, but other living beings on this planet. I feel a kindred relationship with all of them, probably because I was raised in a natural environment and had regular access to nature. Most humans live in urban ghettos now, completely divorced from their source of life. It's hard for me to live knowing that most of the systems I am plugged into are in some way contributing to the suffering or death of so many of our ecological brethren.

Eventually, the world ideal must change - growth should no longer be desirable, but rather the ideal economic growth, both globally and locally, should be 0%. We should strive to control resources, populations, and economic systems to the extent that this will become both livable and sustainable. Financing in this new world should be done on a similar basis - at extremely low, if any interest, with tight controls and strict repayment schedules. Also, Nation states should no longer be permitted to accumulate debt. In addition, no longer will our natural resources undergo raping and pillaging to sustain our energy needs, which can hopefully be cut by a factor of 10-25 within a generation.

It's not a step backwards. It's an acknowledgement that the human race has become large and sophisticated enough to balance itself at an ideal level, in terms of size and societal comfort. Our ambitions shouldn't be tempered, but rather more focused. The childish need to flaunt status through how much disposable crap you have should be looked down upon. The survival of humanity is no longer in question (outside of self-destruction or act of God), and we do not need 10 billion people on the planet; nor do we need any of them to be billionaires. It will require a massive jolt to dislodge ourselves from our current, reckless trajectory, but it will be worth it. Make no mistake though, we will be dislodged either way, whether it's by our own will or an act of nature. If the biosphere is degraded enough, we are finished.
 
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Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

As a Conservative, your part is to pursue restriction and even stasis; this is your ideological prerogative. You can do nothing else while you cleave to this perspective. I understand. But since what amounts to an 'endless supply of money' resides firmly within the grasp of those least susceptible to the measures you champion, we see once more that 'Wing' politics are fundamentally flawed.

Got it, you feel there is an endless supply of money, and no matter how high our national debt is, it's no matter.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

Got it, you feel there is an endless supply of money, and no matter how high our national debt is, it's no matter.
You see?

Viewed via a lens of staunch Conservatism, dialogue is apt to be dangerously misinterpreted. The same applies for the Left, which is why I choose the fence.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

Looking at just the earth's mass is myopic. The only thing that is relevant to us is the biosphere. If we continue to destroy it in pursuit of the earth's mass then the huge numbers you quote will be irrelevant. The biosphere exists on a thin slice of the surface, much like bacteria on our skin. If conditions aren't right, we all die. It's not hysteria or political agendas, it's mere scientific fact. All the oil spills, fracking, and fukushima are literally killing the biosphere. Species are dying at unprecedented rates, not because of global warming even, but because of our human waste.

I just don't understand the ideology behind technological elitism that continues to blindly go forward under the assumption that we will always be able to solve our problems with new tech. Technology always provides short term gains and new long term challenges. People often site medical advances for why humans are now living so long, but what's the point of extending the life of someone who is essentially contributing nothing to human advancement, and watches TV all day while stuffing their face?



Translation: don't think about the future, just do what's needed now. I feel personally responsible for future generations of not only humans, but other living beings on this planet. I feel a kindred relationship with all of them, probably because I was raised in a natural environment and had regular access to nature. Most humans live in urban ghettos now, completely divorced from their source of life. It's hard for me to live knowing that most of the systems I am plugged into are in some way contributing to the suffering or death of so many of our ecological brethren.

Eventually, the world ideal must change - growth should no longer be desirable, but rather the ideal economic growth, both globally and locally, should be 0%. We should strive to control resources, populations, and economic systems to the extent that this will become both livable and sustainable. Financing in this new world should be done on a similar basis - at extremely low, if any interest, with tight controls and strict repayment schedules. Also, Nation states should no longer be permitted to accumulate debt. In addition, no longer will our natural resources undergo raping and pillaging to sustain our energy needs, which can hopefully be cut by a factor of 10-25 within a generation.

It's not a step backwards. It's an acknowledgement that the human race has become large and sophisticated enough to balance itself at an ideal level, in terms of size and societal comfort. Our ambitions shouldn't be tempered, but rather more focused. The childish need to flaunt status through how much disposable crap you have should be looked down upon. The survival of humanity is no longer in question (outside of self-destruction or act of God), and we do not need 10 billion people on the planet; nor do we need any of them to be billionaires. It will require a massive jolt to dislodge ourselves from our current, reckless trajectory, but it will be worth it. Make no mistake though, we will be dislodged either way, whether it's by our own will or an act of nature. If the biosphere is degraded enough, we are finished.

Does all this stuff really make any difference, when the sun burns out, it's all over anyway.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

You see?

Viewed via a lens of staunch Conservatism, dialogue is apt to be dangerously misinterpreted. The same applies for the Left, which is why I choose the fence.

Thanks for agreeing with my statement.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

Thanks for agreeing with my statement.
I'm nothing if not congenial, brah. :lol:
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

I'm nothing if not congenial, brah. :lol:

Yeah, but why not just come out and say the obvious.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

Yeah, but why not just come out and say the obvious.
You couldn't possibly recognise it, irrevocably tainted by the Wings as you are. I've no desire to further protract your misery.
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

You couldn't possibly recognise it, irrevocably tainted by the Wings as you are. I've no desire to further protract your misery.

I get what your all about. It's didn't take long. Don't need to know anything more.:2wave:
 
Re: What is your level of optimism concerning the future of the United States of Amer

Does all this stuff really make any difference, when the sun burns out, it's all over anyway.

No optimism here! :lol:
 
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