View Poll Results: Assuming a 40 hour work week, is minimum wage a lot?

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Thread: Is minimum wage a lot?

  1. #271
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I fully undersand that sometimes things happen that are beyond a person's control.
    Do you?

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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I'd say that if you can care for your family, keep a roof over your head and food on the table and not have your hand out to the government, you're probably okay.
    Can I share some reality with you? or Is reality too foolish for you?

  3. #273
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    You clearly don't know the difference between the words "have" and "own". Ownership is a collection of legal rights to use and enjoy property, including the right to transmit it to others.

    A society that has a legal institution of property and ownership must have law and order, since ownership cannot be protected without enforcement of laws. In a society with private ownership, it is illegal to assault, damage, or steal someone else's property. This precludes your "might makes right" claim. Capitalism requires a legal framework in which property rights in rivalrous resources are legally protected, otherwise there would be lawlessness and chaos, not capitalism, which requires ownership to exist.
    The economic definition is meant to differentiate between the various types of 'ownership', not declare that ownership is ONLY a legal institution or that ownership MUST be protected (by some force except the owner) to have meaning. It's possible for people to recognize ownership from a position of physical power as opposed to legal power. Our society may not recognize such but that doesn't exclude the possibility. Go ask the general public in South America what the drug cartels "own" regardless of what deeds and titles might say. Ask the people in the slums who "owns" what, it won't always match the legal owner. I'm sure the whole "it MUST be this way" fits in well with your green little world but it's not reality.



    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Monopolies are a myth. No single company has ever (at least without government interference) eliminated every one of its competitors.
    You want legal, here it is ...

    Monopoly: "a privilege or peculiar advantage vested in one or more persons or companies, consisting in the exclusive right (or power) to carry on a particular business or trade, manufacture a particular article, or control the sale of the whole supply of a particular commodity."
    -Black's Law, Fifth Edition

    Note it says "one or more persons or companies".

    Monopolies don't exist because they're illegal and there's a reason we've made them illegal. You think we made a law to stop a myth?!? What will we outlaw next, gremlins?



    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    No, in order for capitalism to exist, people's property rights in rivalrous resources must be legally protected. This means that, in such a society, might does not make right, and it would be illegal for anyone to assault, violate, or steal the property of another.
    You've not shown even the first part of that statement let alone the rest of it. You're trying to make capitalism dependent on a given political and/or legal system but it's not. Those green colored glasses are still clouding your view.



    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Capitalism cannot exist in the presence of tyranny or slavery, as these are violations of property rights.
    You're saying the South wasn't a capitalist society????

    You get 3/3 for that nonsense!
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-14-14 at 07:12 PM.
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  4. #274
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasuderatorrent View Post
    Do you?
    I understand that there is a difference between a 40 y/o who gets laid off from a good job and has to work minimum wage and a 40 y/o who has never done anything except work for minimum wage

    Do you?
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  5. #275
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    starting a family before you're financially ready is idiotic.
    You're speaking like a man who doesn't have a family of his own. What does financially ready mean in your world? A house paid in full? A car paid in full? Say for example that you have about $500 left over after paying all of your monthly expenses not including a kid. Is that enough to raise a kid on? Laughable really. Financially ready as a condition for having kids is nowhere near as subjective as minimum wage. You need a certain amount of money just to have kids and what if you don't have it? Then are you're not financially ready? Good luck finding anybody in the middle class who is financially ready to have a kid then. Yourself included.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 01-14-14 at 07:12 PM.
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  6. #276
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Minimum wage laws criminalize paying someone below a fixed price. Paying someone below a fixed price does not assault or damage anyone's person or property. Therefore, based on your statement that the function of government is to protect the person and property of the citizen, a minimum wage law does not serve this function. And because it uses the force of government to punish a person who has not assaulted or harmed anyone's person or property, such a law is itself a violation of person and property.

    On what grounds to you then support minimum wage laws, if they are contrary to the function of government?
    You can't piecemeal a country. Society as a whole can be harmed by economic activity very easily (the Great Recession showed that). Unless you want a race to the bottom of the world economy we'd better have worker laws in place.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  7. #277
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The economic definition is meant to differentiate between the various types of 'ownership', not declare that ownership is ONLY a legal institution or that ownership MUST be protected (by some force except the owner) to have meaning. It's possible for people to recognize ownership from a position of physical power as opposed to legal power. Our society may not recognize such but that doesn't exclude the possibility. Go ask the general public in South America what the drug cartels "own" regardless of what deeds and titles might say. Ask the people in the slums who "owns" what, it won't always match the legal owner. I'm sure the whole "it MUST be this way" fits in well with your green little world but it's not reality.
    Ownership is a bundle of legal rights to use and control a particular rivalrous resource. A thief who steals something does not own that thing. It is still the property of the original owner.

    You want legal, here it is ...

    Monopoly: a privilege or peculiar advantage vested in one or more persons or companies, consisting in the exclusive right (or power) to carry on a particular business or trade, manufacture a particular article, or control the sale of the whole supply of a particular commodity.
    -Black's Law, Fifth Edition

    Note it says "one or more persons or companies".
    Precisely what I just said. Monopolies, to the extent they exist, are government grants of privilege in which certain actors are vested with exclusive rights to stop competition.

    Absent such government interference in people's rights, monopolies don't exist. No company has ever eliminated every one of its competitors without the government helping it do so.

    Monopolies don't exist because they're illegal and there's a reason we've made them illegal. You think we made a law to stop a myth?!? What will we outlaw next, gremlins?
    Yes, I think the law was unnecessary. Unless vested with special privileges by the government, monopolies cannot occur.

    You've not shown even the first part of that statement let alone the rest of it. You're trying to make capitalism dependent a given political and legal system but it's not.
    Capitalism, a system in which the means of production are owned by private individuals, necessarily depends on a legal framework that recognizes ownership rights. A might makes right society cannot be a capitalist society, because there is no legal concept of ownership.

    You're saying the South wasn't a capitalist society????
    Slavery is not capitalist. It violates the ownership rights of people to their own bodies.

  8. #278
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I understand that there is a difference between a 40 y/o who gets laid off from a good job and has to work minimum wage and a 40 y/o who has never done anything except work for minimum wage

    Do you?
    What are you going to do, write a law that says your minimum wage is at least 1/3 of your last year's wages?
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  9. #279
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You can't piecemeal a country. Society as a whole can be harmed by economic activity very easily (the Great Recession showed that). Unless you want a race to the bottom of the world economy we'd better have worker laws in place.
    Your crank economic theories notwithstanding, you are admitting that the act of paying someone below a particular price does not assault or damage anyone's person or property. As such, the government has no business punishing people for an act that does not assault or damage anyone's person or property.

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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    You're speaking like a man who doesn't have a family of his own. What does financially ready mean in your world? A house paid in full? A car paid in full? Say for example that you have about $500 left over after paying all of your monthly expenses not including a kid. Is that enough to raise a kid on? Laughable really. Financially ready as a condition for having kids is nowhere near as subjective as minimum wage. You need a certain amount of money just to have kids and what if you don't have it? Then are you're not financially ready? Good luck finding anybody in the middle class who is financially ready to have a kid then. Yourself included.
    seriously, if everyone waited until they were "financially ready" to start a family, the human race would go extinct in about 60 years.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 01-14-14 at 07:35 PM.
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