View Poll Results: Assuming a 40 hour work week, is minimum wage a lot?

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Thread: Is minimum wage a lot?

  1. #261
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i will say it again for you, the federal government has no legislative authority over the people, unless a citizen violates a federal power of article 1 section 8, any laws pertaining to those powers congress can make, if a citizen commits an act against one of them.

    but congress has no blanket general authority to make laws over the people that have nothing to do with article 1 section 8, or treason.

    the executive branch of government can arrest if you are violating something IN article 1 section 8, or treason.
    the constitution applies no force to the people and it gave no power to the federal government to apply force to 'we the people'
    That was your original statement, which you now admit is incorrect - unless you think jail and/or a death sentence isn't "force".
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  2. #262
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Oh, he's wrong too. You were just the larger of these two evils. Hold your head up high.
    Who was wrong, too?

    And, exactly, what is it you think I'm "wrong" about?
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  3. #263
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I use unfettered because an economist friend of mine used it to differentiate between a truly free market (no controls at all) and the free market system we currently have. Yes, he also used laissez-faire but his interpretation of that was some government control - much as you seem to have depicted it. Maybe that was a 70's thing.
    I imaging that we would agree that the following, from investopedia is a suitable description of capitalism:

    A system of economics based on the private ownership of capital and production inputs, and on the production of goods and services for profit. The production of goods and services is based on supply and demand in the general market (market economy), rather than through central planning (planned economy).

    Please note that it says that capitalism is based on ownership. Ownership relies on law and order. There must be laws that protect property from theft, damage, and various other violations. There must be contract law, so that property can be legally transferred from one party to another.

    You seem to be using the term capitalism to mean "a system in which there is no law and order and property rights are not protected". As you can see from the very definition of capitalism, it is a system founded upon property rights and property and contract laws. It is absolutely not a description of a society in which people are "unfettered" and in which might makes right. I don't now what such a system would be called. Perhaps chaos, or lawlessness, but it cannot be called capitalism, because capitalism simply cannot exist in a lawless society. It is predicated upon the enforcement of property rights.

  4. #264
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That was your original statement, which you now admit is incorrect - unless you think jail and/or a death sentence isn't "force".
    you still dont understand.....

    state powers encompass the...... life's, liberty and property of the people.

    congress cannot created laws, to legislate those things.....because as stated they are state powers.

    congress cannot make laws unless they pertain the powers of article 1 section 8.......none of the powers of article 1 section 8 have anything to do with the personal life's of the people.

    if a citizen WERE to violate something in article 1 section 8, counterfeiting, treason , piracy......which the congress has authority to create legislation for those things [laws], then government can arrest you and punish you.

    but it has no legislative authority, outside of d.c. or on anything which is not federal property.

    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;

  5. #265
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    I imaging that we would agree that the following, from investopedia is a suitable description of capitalism:

    A system of economics based on the private ownership of capital and production inputs, and on the production of goods and services for profit. The production of goods and services is based on supply and demand in the general market (market economy), rather than through central planning (planned economy).

    Please note that it says that capitalism is based on ownership. Ownership relies on law and order. There must be laws that protect property from theft, damage, and various other violations. There must be contract law, so that property can be legally transferred from one party to another.
    That's private ownership as opposed to state ownership (socialism) or no ownership (communism). You're adding in a whole slew of stuff that isn't required for ownership. I have a hammer in my hand so it's mine - I own it - until I put it down, give it to someone else, or someone takes it away from me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    You seem to be using the term capitalism to mean "a system in which there is no law and order and property rights are not protected". As you can see from the very definition of capitalism, it is a system founded upon property rights and property and contract laws. It is absolutely not a description of a society in which people are "unfettered" and in which might makes right. I don't now what such a system would be called. Perhaps chaos, or lawlessness, but it cannot be called capitalism, because capitalism simply cannot exist in a lawless society. It is predicated upon the enforcement of property rights.
    The best of example of unfettered capitalism is monopolies. A truly free market system would accept monopolies. It would not recognize any form of patent, trademark, or logo protection - along with no copywrite. This is an unregulated system where anything goes, where only Might ($$$) Makes Right. Followed to it's logical conclusion, it leads to tyranny and/or slavery.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 01-14-14 at 05:21 PM.
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    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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  6. #266
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    you still dont understand.....

    state powers encompass the...... life's, liberty and property of the people.

    congress cannot created laws, to legislate those things.....because as stated they are state powers.

    congress cannot make laws unless they pertain the powers of article 1 section 8.......none of the powers of article 1 section 8 have anything to do with the personal life's of the people.

    if a citizen WERE to violate something in article 1 section 8, counterfeiting, treason , piracy......which the congress has authority to create legislation for those things [laws], then government can arrest you and punish you.

    but it has no legislative authority, outside of d.c. or on anything which is not federal property.

    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;
    Yawn.

    Of course you don't recognize the ramifications of the commerce clause in the modern world. You're still living in 1789.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  7. #267
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    That's private ownership as opposed to state ownership (socialism) or no ownership (communism). You're adding in a whole slew of stuff that isn't required for ownership. I have a hammer in my hand so it's mine - I own it - until I put it down, give it to someone else, or someone takes it away from me.
    You clearly don't know the difference between the words "have" and "own". Ownership is a collection of legal rights to use and enjoy property, including the right to transmit it to others.

    A society that has a legal institution of property and ownership must have law and order, since ownership cannot be protected without enforcement of laws. In a society with private ownership, it is illegal to assault, damage, or steal someone else's property. This precludes your "might makes right" claim. Capitalism requires a legal framework in which property rights in rivalrous resources are legally protected, otherwise there would be lawlessness and chaos, not capitalism, which requires ownership to exist.

    The best of example of unfettered capitalism is monopolies. A truly free market system would accept monopolies.
    Monopolies are a myth. No single company has ever (at least without government interference) eliminated every one of its competitors.

    It would not recognize any form of patent, trademark, or logo protection - along with no copywrite. This is an unregulated system where anything goes, where only Might ($$$) Makes Right. Followed to it's logical conclusion, it leads to tyranny and/or slavery.
    No, in order for capitalism to exist, people's property rights in rivalrous resources must be legally protected. This means that, in such a society, might does not make right, and it would be illegal for anyone to assault, violate, or steal the property of another. Capitalism cannot exist in the presence of tyranny or slavery, as these are violations of property rights.
    Last edited by Federalist; 01-14-14 at 06:12 PM.

  8. #268
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The function of government is to protect the person and property of the citizens - period.
    Minimum wage laws criminalize paying someone below a fixed price. Paying someone below a fixed price does not assault or damage anyone's person or property. Therefore, based on your statement that the function of government is to protect the person and property of the citizen, a minimum wage law does not serve this function. And because it uses the force of government to punish a person who has not assaulted or harmed anyone's person or property, such a law is itself a violation of person and property.

    On what grounds to you then support minimum wage laws, if they are contrary to the function of government?

  9. #269
    Sporadic insanity normal.


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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The Rule of Capitalism: Might Makes Right!

    Yeah, that's "freedom" ...
    In some ways, it is.

    In others, not so much.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  10. #270
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    Re: Is minimum wage a lot?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasuderatorrent View Post
    That's very observant. You seem to be very intelligent.
    I should change my name to Captain Obvious.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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