There are 36 countries with better healthcare than the USA. What needs to happen?

MichaelJR said:

America, once again, could care less about Europe, nor should we. They are proving to be our downfall, influencing us and attempting to ratify law by foreign decree. The day UN troops are on US soil, I assure you, target practice on blue helmets commences. I think we should return to our isolationist policies with the old policy of trade with all, ally with none, avoid war, everyone can do what they want. We don't want to be part of this failed globalist experiment. We don't want this utopia being offered. We don't want social enlightenment in the form of western european idealism. We don't want bottom up social justice or wealth redistribution. The EU is a drag on the worlds economy, and if Germany (and formerly France) didn't hold it together, you'd all be bankrupt (not that Italy, Portugal, Spain, Greece, etc aren't on their way or already there). You were better off before this desire for an unattainable system. Kick the UN to the curb, drop the EU, and be your own people again. Globalism does not work. It never will.

The thousands of years of feudal rule and being subjects of the government...I can understand the indoctrinated beliefs.

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It's funny you say that, because it appears that it's only working better and better by the year. The financial crisis of 2008 caused by the ****ty American economy sent ripples throughout the world -- but even today, literally today, there was an article on the BBC about how fears of a Euro collapse have disappeared.

In fact, European GDP is growing. European PPP is growing. European GNP is growing. And that's not all due to Germany, struggling in vain -- it's also France, and Italy, and Britain, and the other nations of the world's largest and most powerful economic bloc.

I find it childish, repugnant and pathetic that some Americans (though thankfully a minority) have such a selfish and hateful view of the world, that they would isolate themselves and live in fear and squalor. But most Americans agree with us, because you are our offspring, like it or not. Most Americans agree with the very same social ideals and wealth distribution that you so childishly rant against -- that is why the majority of Americans vote Democrat, that is why a Democrat is in power now, and that is why the Republican party is a decrepit old dinosaur crumbling from its backwardness and radicalism.

You claim globalism does not work, and never will. Well, your countrymen disagree with you, your government disagrees with you, and the rest of your Western brethren disagree with you.

I can only imagine you live in a sad world, if it is populated by conspiracies of 'blue helmet' occupation and hatred towards anyone not just like you.

But fear not -- people like you are always on the losing end of history. That's progress.

Ad_Captandum said:

It's funny you say that, because it appears that it's only working better and better by the year. The financial crisis of 2008 caused by the ****ty American economy sent ripples throughout the world -- but even today, literally today, there was an article on the BBC about how fears of a Euro collapse have disappeared.

Uhhh....Spain Portugal Greece. One bailout of any of the above, and you're bankrupt. Simple numbers.


In fact, European GDP is growing. European PPP is growing. European GNP is growing. And that's not all due to Germany, struggling in vain -- it's also France, and Italy, and Britain, and the other nations of the world's largest and most powerful economic bloc.

It's all Germany.

I find it childish, repugnant and pathetic that some Americans (though thankfully a minority) have such a selfish and hateful view of the world, that they would isolate themselves and live in fear and squalor. But most Americans agree with us, because you are our offspring, like it or not. Most Americans agree with the very same social ideals and wealth distribution that you so childishly rant against -- that is why the majority of Americans vote Democrat, that is why a Democrat is in power now, and that is why the Republican party is a decrepit old dinosaur crumbling from its backwardness and radicalism.

Minority? Dude....read a book. Democrats hold essentially a 52% vs 48% lead. That's it. Maybe our definition of 'most' is different. House is held by a landslide. Senate will fall next year due to Obamacare. Your understanding of American politics is frightening. P.S. a Democrat isn't in power, he's a progressive. Democrats haven't been around for quite some time, although democrats vote for progressives for some unknown reason.

You claim globalism does not work, and never will. Well, your countrymen disagree with you, your government disagrees with you, and the rest of your Western brethren disagree with you.

Western brethren? Europe isn't my Brethren. Half this country views you in a negative light, for the record. The overwhelming majority of our armed servicemen and women are right wing. European media is spinning it lovely, I assure you, the reality is quite different.

I can only imagine you live in a sad world, if it is populated by conspiracies of 'blue helmet' occupation and hatred towards anyone not just like you.
I don't want you here. Half of us don't. It's not occupation, the mere sight of them is enough. I would assume let you all to your own accord. Trade with you, etc...that's about it. You're obviously morally superior, and clearly your form of economic structure is enlightened to say the least...well....you certainly don't need us in that case. Please, take care of the rest of the world. Tell us how well Belgium foots the bill of Africa. Denmark maintaining stability abroad. etc etc. GB and Germany are the only reason Europe is still anything worth mentioning on the global scale. 90% of the countries in this so called EU are economically dependent, largely useless, and


But fear not -- people like you are always on the losing end of history. That's progress.

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I can't wait for Europe to fall once Germany and GB pulls the plug, which they will....albeit slowly, but they will. Hopefully, America will wake up and go isolationist/autonomous again so we don't need to carry that continent once more. European arrogance needs a slap in the face. The only mention worthy countries in that area are France, GB, and Germany. The rest are as useless and relevant as tits on a boar. Hopefully, they band together and put some semblance of whatever you call "order" in the region.

Now that's progress. Let the chips fall where they may, let America sit back for about 10 years. Let us know how well European social engineering and economic prowess is doing in the attempt to save the world and develop utopia. I'll grab the popcorn. Let me know when the riots stop.


I long for the days when we were just trade partners.

For the record, you HAD culture. Now you're a shadow of your former selves. Freedom, with a camera on every corner. Give yourselves a round of applause.


And this is nothing personal, I don't know you. I have met some decent Europeans, but nil can grasp how our understanding of freedom is viable. I suppose being subjects of a crown for generations can do that to you. God save the queen.

Carjosse said:

None of that would change with single payer.

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Right. Because all those people who are getting treatment and drugs for free at the government run centers will be more than happy to go out and pay for it out-of-pocket to keep innovations coming. Other than the wealthy who will be willing to pay for higher quality and better drugs/doctors, the funding available for innovation and new drugs will slow to a very small trickle of what it is today. No, it probably won't disappear, but it will be such a small percentage of what it is today.

Instead of such a system, simply do a historical look back at costs. You'll see that up to the mid 70s, our cost were easily compatible with socialized systems. Much better to go back to that point, remove what caused the trouble and allow the system to return to balance and keep all the drugs and innovation.

Not to mention that socializing med will kill motivation. Government controls pay also. How many of the best and brightest are going to settle for what the government offers and then be satisfied getting paid for high performance and standards while receiving the same as the laziest and least qualified? Especially when people of that brain power still have a plethora of career choices not restricted by the government.

jimbo said:

The last paragraph above is a huge unintended consequence of Obamacare. Much of the worlds improvement in life span, cure of diseases, and overall health is due to research by companies for the American market. Simply, the first pill costs millions, the second a few cents. Without a profit incentive, who will find the next polio cure?

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There are others, but that is one of the reasons I think that we will not fully understand Obamacare for a generation.

Ad_Captandum said:

French troops since the turn of the millennia have been in: Cote d'Ivoire, Mali, Guyana, Djibouti, the Central African Republic, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Chad and Somalia. American troops have undertaken operations in: Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia.

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When did the French troops came to Dardania (see clarification in signature)?

What needs to happen?

Free enterprise.

Outside of basic care for those who cannot afford it...get the government out of the medical field (except for regulation, of course).

Allow insurance companies to charge whatever they wish and in any way they wish and deny anyone they wish for any reason they wish (again, those that cannot qualify can be aided by the government for basic care).
I personally, would also like to see universal healthcare for needy children. NOT adults...just children. The latter should not suffer because they have useless parents.

Government = STAGGERING inefficiency

I'm for universal healthcare.

Hard Truth said:

In some states more than a quarter of the population had no coverage, medical problems were the leading cause of foreclosures and bankruptcies, and a large portion of health care for low income people was provided through the least cost efficient method; emergency rooms. Many people are stuck in their jobs because they wouldn't be able to get coverage otherwise. I considered that broken..

We should not adopt another country's system because it is "cool," we should adopt the aspects of other country's systems that are proven to work well.

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I'm sure that none of those foreclosures and bankruptcies were due to poor financial planning, no. Like I said before, the jury is still out on this thing. You talk as though the bill that went into effect 3 days ago is already a huge success that everyone likes and blasts the old system out of the water. With all due respect (now I can say whatever I want), that is a bunch of BS.

The old system wasn't broken. It was inefficient and bloated. Obamacare won't fix much of that through addressing mainly insurance. Lastly, which European system do you like? Keep in mind that logistics and administration for 5-10 million people is a little easier than 50-150 million (assuming the rest covered by work).

Like a lot of major social issues in the US I don't see this paticular issue being resolved anytime soon, America is just too divided on what is the best course.

DVSentinel said:

Right. Because all those people who are getting treatment and drugs for free at the government run centers will be more than happy to go out and pay for it out-of-pocket to keep innovations coming. Other than the wealthy who will be willing to pay for higher quality and better drugs/doctors, the funding available for innovation and new drugs will slow to a very small trickle of what it is today. No, it probably won't disappear, but it will be such a small percentage of what it is today.

Instead of such a system, simply do a historical look back at costs. You'll see that up to the mid 70s, our cost were easily compatible with socialized systems. Much better to go back to that point, remove what caused the trouble and allow the system to return to balance and keep all the drugs and innovation.

Not to mention that socializing med will kill motivation. Government controls pay also. How many of the best and brightest are going to settle for what the government offers and then be satisfied getting paid for high performance and standards while receiving the same as the laziest and least qualified? Especially when people of that brain power still have a plethora of career choices not restricted by the government.

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You have no idea how single-payer works then. Single-payer is a payment system where the government pays for everyone instead of just the individual patient. I can go to the United States and treatment and the Ontario government will pay for it, they just don't like doing it because they never negotiated the price. It is to make bargaining with companies which makes it easier to get cheaper drugs and other medical instruments. All the research is still done by private companies and universities just paid for differently and the price is negotiated instead of the companies being to charge what ever the hell they want. Sometimes provinces will even work together to buy things because you get a better deal if you say buy 1,000,000 whatever of a drug at a time instead of one person buying a few.

Carjosse said:

You have no idea how single-payer works then. Single-payer is a payment system where the government pays for everyone instead of just the individual patient. I can go to the United States and treatment and the Ontario government will pay for it, they just don't like doing it because they never negotiated the price. It is to make bargaining with companies which makes it easier to get cheaper drugs and other medical instruments. All the research is still done by private companies and universities just paid for differently and the price is negotiated instead of the companies being to charge what ever the hell they want. Sometimes provinces will even work together to buy things because you get a better deal if you say buy 1,000,000 whatever of a drug at a time instead of one person buying a few.

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Why would you go the the US to get treatment if yours is so high a quality?

Ad_Captandum said:

This is the first I've heard that the report was anything but based off of careful research. I suspect you don't like the WHO report for the same reason you probably don't like the UN or the WTO -- they're not American, they appear to take power away from America, and they often criticise America when you would prefer not to be criticised.

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Well golly gee, if you believe that, I would recommend you stick your head into the thread where we discuss the multitude of problems with that study, and get subsequently creamed.

DVSentinel said:

Why would you go the the US to get treatment if yours is so high a quality?

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Well the U.S. has treatments that may not be available here as the U.S. does have the newest research as you have the population to do it. You can have more people doing research in California alone than we can have.

Carjosse said:

Well the U.S. has treatments that may not be available here as the U.S. does have the newest research as you have the population to do it. You can have more people doing research in California alone than we can have.

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The US having the latest and greatest has nothing to do with population, rather it has to do with the profit motive. The US health care consumer pays far more for the research than thepiggybackers.

To level the playing field, it might be a smart move for the US to tax health care products exported to other countries, and levy a tax on those coming here for the superior care.

jimbo said:

The US having the latest and greatest has nothing to do with population, rather it has to do with the profit motive. The US health care consumer pays far more for the research than thepiggybackers.

To level the playing field, it might be a smart move for the US to tax health care products exported to other countries, and levy a tax on those coming here for the superior care.

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The U.S. has 10x our population please tell me how that has nothing to do with it. There is still profit motive in a single-payer system, it encourages competition as only the best product will be chosen. It is like military procurement whoever can produce the best equipment for the best price will be chosen.

Carjosse said:

The U.S. has 10x our population please tell me how that has nothing to do with it. There is still profit motive in a single-payer system, it encourages competition as only the best product will be chosen. It is like military procurement whoever can produce the best equipment for the best price will be chosen.

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That may be how military procurement works on paper, but sure as hell it doesn't work that way in practice. OR at least as I understand it.

Ad_Captandum said:

It's no secret that the US healthcare system is a disaster, and of all developed nations, the US has some of the worst healthcare and overall health.

This Business Insider article mentions the 36 countries that have better healthcare than the US, from France in #1 to Costa Rica in #36.

My poll today is: What needs to change to bring the US closer to other developed nations in terms of healthcare quality, service and costs?

The 36 Best Healthcare Systems In The World - Business Insider

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Total BS. None of those countries handle near the huge number of patients as the US system does very successfully. Not even close.

USA should change Mr.Freedom identity. at least domestically

MichaelJR said:

I can't wait for Europe to fall once Germany and GB pulls the plug, which they will....albeit slowly, but they will. Hopefully, America will wake up and go isolationist/autonomous again so we don't need to carry that continent once more. European arrogance needs a slap in the face. The only mention worthy countries in that area are France, GB, and Germany. The rest are as useless and relevant as tits on a boar. Hopefully, they band together and put some semblance of whatever you call "order" in the region.

Now that's progress. Let the chips fall where they may, let America sit back for about 10 years. Let us know how well European social engineering and economic prowess is doing in the attempt to save the world and develop utopia. I'll grab the popcorn. Let me know when the riots stop.


I long for the days when we were just trade partners.

For the record, you HAD culture. Now you're a shadow of your former selves. Freedom, with a camera on every corner. Give yourselves a round of applause.


And this is nothing personal, I don't know you. I have met some decent Europeans, but nil can grasp how our understanding of freedom is viable. I suppose being subjects of a crown for generations can do that to you. God save the queen.

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It's not all Germany. That's a blatant lie. Britain and France are both growing, though that may be hard for you to hear. That is simply a fact.

The Euro is in no danger of collapsing, despite what your fearmongers tell you -- as I said, there was an article literally yesterday on the BBC explaining how the Euro is safe now.

In your own Time magazine, there was a piece on the renewed strength of the Eurozone, and even the Economist, which is decidedly right-wing, admitted there's little danger of failure anymore.

I don't know where you're getting your information -- 2009?

Anyway, as for Democrats vs. Republicans, I can't help but laugh at what you said. Yes, in fact, I do consider 52% a majority. That's literally the definition of a majority.

The Republican Party is dying of its backwardness and older support -- and those Tea Party nuts are not helping. Texas is projected to be a blue state (Texas!) by 2030, due to immigration and urbanisation -- and if it can happen in Texas, it can happen anywhere.

You may not think of us as your brethren, just as a rebellious teenager rages at the parent, but we are the same. We speak the same languages, we have the same laws, we have the same forms of governments, the same political ideals, the same social ideals, the same religions, the same hobbies, the same enemies, and the same lifestyles.

Are there differences? Sure. Maybe I love haggis, which you would find repulsive. Maybe you enjoy shooting guns, which I would find antiquated. But our cultures, or rather, culture, is in total agreement that democracy is the way to go, and that people should have rights, and that the legal system should be fair, and that there ought be checks and balances on the government.

You say half the country hates us -- I don't think so. Why else would Europe be the Number One destination for American tourists? Why else would Americans watch so much British TV? Why else would they go absolutely insane over the Royal wedding? Why else would Americans both to learn European languages, or buy European merchandise, or read European literature?

You're a bigot, and it does not cast you in a good light. We bear you no ill will as a people, and I think the majority of Americans bear us no ill will. Why are you so hate-filled?

Newman said:

USA should change Mr.Freedom identity. at least domestically

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Why? So the EU countries can finally feel good about themselves? Waste of time.

clownboy said:

Why? So the EU countries can finally feel good about themselves? Waste of time.

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I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain of the EU countries being too humble or sad. Isn't the stereotype that we're arrogant, pompous and self-righteous?

clownboy said:

Why? So the EU countries can finally feel good about themselves? Waste of time.

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irrelevant comparison i don' think that EU states care about the US health problems. But American s should think about their outdated values. I

I blame the lawyers.

Ad_Captandum said:

Don't be disingenuous -- you have the same laws. You are similarly not allowed to incite hatred, nor are you able to shout 'fire!' in a movie theatre. You'll get arrested in the US for going to a NAACP meeting and screaming racial epithets and urging people to kill black people, just the same as if you were in Britain.

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In most of Europe there is less censorship of sexual content than in the USA, so in some ways Europe is more free. But on the other hand, there are hate speech laws in many European countries which the USA does not have. We only prosecute for creating an imminent danger through incitement of a riot or fighting words leading to a fight. We also have a corporate controlled media that keeps many viewpointsz from being heard. (I don't know if that is true to the same extent in Europe.]

SBu said:

I'm sure that none of those foreclosures and bankruptcies were due to poor financial planning, no. Like I said before, the jury is still out on this thing. You talk as though the bill that went into effect 3 days ago is already a huge success that everyone likes and blasts the old system out of the water. With all due respect (now I can say whatever I want), that is a bunch of BS.

The old system wasn't broken. It was inefficient and bloated. Obamacare won't fix much of that through addressing mainly insurance. Lastly, which European system do you like? Keep in mind that logistics and administration for 5-10 million people is a little easier than 50-150 million (assuming the rest covered by work).

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Read my posts, I am not defending ACA, I'm saying that the previous non-system was not acceptable. I prefer a system that does not include a role for insurance companies at all.