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Do you reject evolution?

Do you reject evolution?


  • Total voters
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No, I hold it APPEARS to be random, however, it COULD be by design as well.

It could always be God. No one can ever prove that to be impossible. Your position is meaningless.
 
Again, that is an assumption. Not fact. They APPEAR random maybe to you and others. That doesn't mean there isn't ANY design in them.

Science is naturalistic, we can only go by what is observable in some way. Observation, along with the laws of chemistry and physics, tells us that gene mutations are random and those mutations result from molecular changes as they are copied. Yes, one could say they believe God is behind those changes. However, that is no different than saying one believes that a small teapot orbits the sun somewhere between Mars and Jupiter and just because we haven't seen it, that doesn't mean its not there. After all, its a massive place and how could we ever hope to ever find a tiny little teapot orbiting the sun?

My point being is that you can chose to believe that God is behind some of the perceived randomness, but that is not science, that is simply a personal belief of yours.
 
It could always be God. No one can ever prove that to be impossible. Your position is meaningless.

And your position that it is random as fact is as well. Thank you for your concession.
 
And your position that it is random as fact is as well. Thank you for your concession.


Without random mutation, one does NOT believe in evolution.
 
Science is naturalistic, we can only go by what is observable in some way. Observation, along with the laws of chemistry and physics, tells us that gene mutations are random and those mutations result from molecular changes as they are copied. Yes, one could say they believe God is behind those changes. However, that is no different than saying one believes that a small teapot orbits the sun somewhere between Mars and Jupiter and just because we haven't seen it, that doesn't mean its not there. After all, its a massive place and how could we ever hope to ever find a tiny little teapot orbiting the sun?

My point being is that you can chose to believe that God is behind some of the perceived randomness, but that is not science, that is simply a personal belief of yours.

When you claim something IS random, you are in fact making an assumption yourself in the affirmitive. Science is not absolute. If you were to claim it APPEARS random, then I would agree with you, however when you say it IS random, you are making an affirmative. Kinda like when an atheist says 'There is NO god" there are in fact making an unprovable assumption as well.
 
Not really, because evolution could still be God(s) design.

Wrong!

Evolution's driving mechanism is random mutation. Design =/= random.

You're saying change could be through God's design, but if one takes random mutation away from evolution, one is no longer talking about evolution at all but Intelligent Design.
 
I absolutely think evolution took place on this planet. But I also think there are some pretty serious empiric problems with the theory that aren't easy to solve with currently-known mechanisms. There are also some logical problems with the theory that probably cannot be solved. So it's a theory in need of adjustment, but this will need to be done in a rigorous manner.
 
Who says it is is random and not by some design? The idea of evolution is about change and adaptation.

To what end would god create an illusion of random mutation and natural selection? To **** with us?
 
What religion are you?

Or a better question -- could this sort of mindless dogmatism actually serve a purpose in terms of survival of the species?

I mean, since we are a social animal devoid of proper offensive weaponry by way of fangs or claws, and are slow, soft-bodied creatures lacking any sort of defensive capabilities, the only advantage we have is our ability to cooperate with each other for a common purpose. In that, perhaps we are hardwired towards shared belief to some degree, and while his may be an extreme expression of such and lacking in intelligence, it could actually reveal one of those survival traits that are a product of evolution.
 
When you claim something IS random, you are in fact making an assumption yourself in the affirmitive. Science is not absolute. If you were to claim it APPEARS random, then I would agree with you, however when you say it IS random, you are making an affirmative. Kinda like when an atheist says 'There is NO god" there are in fact making an unprovable assumption as well.

Science is about probability. The probability that the genetic mutations that provide the initial catalysts are random is infinitely higher than the probability that they occur due to some supernatural power. In science that is all that matters. It doesn't mean that God being behind it is impossible, it simply means from a scientific perspective for all intents and purposes it is statistically impossible that those changes are not random.
 
Again, you are simply incorrect

You're claiming to believe in engineering but not physics! It's nonsense. Evolution DOES NOT EXIST without random mutation.


One can claim that God knew single cell organisms would result in people, but one cannot claim that God planned every gene mutation and it was RANDOM.
 
"Technically," it's not? How's that? Who says so?

Modern science says so. Evolution does not need a supernatural guide. No where in any peer reviewed research or work done on evolution and its mechanisms, is there any supernatural entity. If one chooses to believe in theistic evolution, then they certainly can do so, but thats not evolution, that is simply a philosophy about it.
 
Nope I don't reject evolution.

It may well need to be tweaked, like all good theories, but I believe it the correct explanation for how life evolves.
 
You're claiming to believe in engineering but not physics! It's nonsense. Evolution DOES NOT EXIST without random mutation.


One can claim that God knew single cell organisms would result in people, but one cannot claim that God planned every gene mutation and it was RANDOM.

Yet you still have not provided ANYTHING to prove your claims. Pathetic. You're dismissed.
 
Or a better question -- could this sort of mindless dogmatism actually serve a purpose in terms of survival of the species?

I mean, since we are a social animal devoid of proper offensive weaponry by way of fangs or claws, and are slow, soft-bodied creatures lacking any sort of defensive capabilities, the only advantage we have is our ability to cooperate with each other for a common purpose. In that, perhaps we are hardwired towards shared belief to some degree, and while his may be an extreme expression of such and lacking in intelligence, it could actually reveal one of those survival traits that are a product of evolution.

I'm not so sure Alpha and other 'pack positions' are genetic. I would say that genes carry an inclination one way or another, but socialization is the larger factor.

It seems we will not be told what religion.
 
Computers can do random, but I cant quite get my head around an all knowing God creating a truly random system. There are some things above my pay grade.
To what end would god create an illusion of random mutation and natural selection? To **** with us?
 
Science is about probability. The probability that the genetic mutations that provide the initial catalysts are random is infinitely higher than the probability that they occur due to some supernatural power. In science that is all that matters. It doesn't mean that God being behind it is impossible, it simply means from a scientific perspective for all intents and purposes it is statistically impossible that those changes are not random.

Correct, so you cannot say it IS random, only that it APPEARS to be or has a good probability to be. See, was that so hard?
 
Computers can do random, but I cant quite get my head around an all knowing God creating a truly random system. There are some things above my pay grade.

I didn't say god created a random system. Read my question in the context in which it appears.
 
Yet you still have not provided ANYTHING to prove your claims. Pathetic. You're dismissed.

haha


The mechanisms of evolution—like natural selection and genetic drift—work with the random variation generated by mutation.

Evolution 101: Mutation Is Not "Directed"


Without random mutation, one cannot classify something as evolution. One can claim "things change, I don't know why or how", but one cannot claim to accept evolution.


This is the reason Intelligent DESIGN is not called Intelligent Evolution.
 
Do I reject micro-evolution. No.

Do I reject macro-evolution. Yes.

Those who indulge in creationist claptrap love to use these terms, but he only real difference between the two lies in terms of the amount of time involved. They describe the same process.
 
Yet you still have not provided ANYTHING to prove your claims. Pathetic. You're dismissed.

He doesn't need to provide proof. Directed mutation and random mutation are logically distinct. It is logically impossible for both to operate on the same process simultaneously
 
We can see it, so the fundamentals can't be denied. Genetic changes have not been explained though, and the original postulation doesn't address them. Given that such knowledge was not available at the time the theory was formulated, it is understandable. We have not been able to make our current understanding of them conform to the theory, but perhaps we will in time.
 
the sad thing is that there are people who truly believe that if one would be able to travel to 10,000 years or so ago, we human magically popped out of thin air in our current form.
 
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