Should the minimum wage be raised?[W:30]

Should the minimum wage be raised?


yes
No
It should be repealed.
Other.


I say yes and it should automatically go up or down depending on the cost living.Businesses can not be trusted to do the right thing and without minimum wage laws individuals would still be getting paid peanuts and living in **** hole shacks like they were in the days of Andrew Carnegie and other robber barons.

Yes I realize this opinion differs from most conservatives.Most conservatives and republicans in general seem to think companies should be allowed to someone 20 cents an hour if they want to and use the crock of **** excuse "but its a entry level job" to justify it. I know that people should not be paid peanuts when they are doing most of the work while the pay of some fat cat on top keeps going up. Plus with outsourcing, the scum in office trying to pass amnesty and import more workers, automization and colleges flooding the labor market with college grads all those jobs are going to be limited. We will be living in a take what you can get job market which means many people regardless of education or experience will be working at walmarts,mcdonalds and other low wage jobs.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Yes.
It should be kept up with inflation, which i believe today that would be around $10.40

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

jamesrage said:

Should the minimum wage be raised?


yes
No
It should be repealed.
Other.


I say yes and it should automatically go up or down depending on the cost living.Businesses can not be trusted to do the right thing and without minimum wage laws individuals would still be getting paid peanuts and living in **** hole shacks like they were in the days of Andrew Carnegie and other robber barons.

Yes I realize this opinion differs from most conservatives.Most conservatives and republicans in general seem to think companies should be allowed to someone 20 cents an hour if they want to and use the crock of **** excuse "but its a entry level job" to justify it. I know that people should not be paid peanuts when they are doing most of the work while the pay of some fat cat on top keeps going up. Plus with outsourcing, the scum in office trying to pass amnesty and import more workers, automization and colleges flooding the labor market with college grads all those jobs are going to be limited. We will be living in a take what you can get job market which means many people regardless of education or experience will be working at walmarts,mcdonalds and other low wage jobs.

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And what if big business gets government to officially suppress the cost-of-living (the CPI)?

Imo, the gov't. already suppresses it to keep SS payment increases down and to allow for large federal deficits.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

I believe it should be repealed for several reasons.

- the 'free' market knows far better how much an employee is worth then government does
- there is no chance of 'robber barons' paying virtually nothing to employees again as back then there was no government welfare programs. No one is going to work for $4 an hour when they make more then that (in essence) sitting at home in a welfare apartment collecting food stamps and Obamacare. People would have to be paid enough to make it worthwhile to stop sucking on the government teat.
- the current minimum wage is inflexible, being (federally) the same whether you live in Manhattan or 50 miles outside of Des Moines. Private enterprise would obviously pay each worker according to the local needs if they want people to fill their vacancies.
- if some stubborn corporations insist on paying people well below the national average, the masses could show their outrage by economically boycotting those corporations until they raise their wages...nothing usually works faster on corporations then mass economic boycott.
- finally, I simply believe the government has no business telling private businesses what they can pay their employees.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

DA60 said:

I believe it should be repealed for several reasons.

- the 'free' market knows far better how much an employee is worth then government does

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Wrong.The free marke could care less what an employee is worth. What they care about is lowest amount they can get away with paying someone to do a job.

- there is no chance of 'robber barons' paying virtually nothing to employees again as back then there was no government welfare programs. No one is going to work for $4 an hour when they make more then that (in essence) sitting at home in a welfare apartment collecting food stamps and Obamacare. People would have to be paid enough to make it worthwhile to stop sucking on the government teat.

Click to expand...

If welfare is cut and or the amount of time someone can receive welfare is shortened many people wouldn't have a choice but to take that 4 dollar, 3 dollar or even 1 dollar an hour job.

- if some stubborn corporations insist on paying people well below the national average, the masses could show their outrage by economically boycotting those corporations until they raise their wages...nothing usually works faster on corporations then mass economic boycott.

Click to expand...

No they wouldn't.Workers in China make 23- 33 cents an hour for 80 hours a week. Most Americans don't give two ****s that Chinese workers are making next to nothing.So they wouldn't be all that outraged if Americans were making next to nothing.

Chinese Workers Pay for Wal-Mart's Low Prices
Li said these factories often require employees to work as many as 80 hours per week during the busy season for $75 to $110 per month,

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

jamesrage said:

Wrong.The free marke could care less what an employee is worth. What they care about is lowest amount they can get away with paying someone to do a job.

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Isn't that what I said? Workers will get paid what they are worth to the company...not paid by some arbitrary number cooked up by a bureaucrat.
The laws of supply and demand and 'free' market will determine what a WalMart employee is worth...which is as it should be.
Government has no business telling private businesses what they can pay their employees, IMO.

If welfare is cut and or the amount of time someone can receive welfare is shortened many people wouldn't have a choice but to take that 4 dollar, 3 dollar or even 1 dollar an hour job.

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Irrelevant. Your scenario mentioned nothing of this. And there is zero evidence that society as a whole is looking to cut welfare programs (other then certain cons wanting to cut back on food stamps - which I totally disagree with, btw).

No they wouldn't.Workers in China make 23- 33 cents an hour for 80 hours a week. Most Americans don't give two ****s that Chinese workers are making next to nothing.So they wouldn't be all that outraged if Americans were making next to nothing.

Chinese Workers Pay for Wal-Mart's Low Prices
Li said these factories often require employees to work as many as 80 hours per week during the busy season for $75 to $110 per month,

Click to expand...

You have ZERO personal knowledge what people will do in the future. You are just guessing.
Now if they are smart/decent, they will boycott stores that pay wages that are too low. If they are dumb/selfish...they won't. Either way, it's the masses fault if stores are allowed to thrive by knowingly paying meagre wages.
The masses will decide what stores pay their employees by the power of their dollars...not the macroeconomic ignoramuses in government.

I say let the free market decide what every single employee is worth..not the pathetic losers in government. You don't agree - fine.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

TheDemSocialist said:

Yes.
It should be kept up with inflation, which i believe today that would be around $10.40

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Isn't the problem with that an inflationary cycle? When the minimum wage goes up, business costs go up, prices go up, so the minimum wage goes up…

While I like the principle of the minimum wage, I think there are major practical blocks to ever increasing it (and certainly the concept of a "living wage" which seems to be ever more popular). It strikes me as a sticking plaster over a much more fundamental problem. In the west, what is considered necessary for a basic existence and what more is considered necessary for a comfortable one is ever increasing and ever more expensive. It's not all that long ago that people would be content with a single-room, an outside toilet and meat on the table once a week as a treat. Now people seem to consider things like dishwashers, mobile phones and cable TV as bare necessities and are unwilling or unable to cook for themselves or put any real effort in to making and fixing things rather than throwing them away and buying a new one.

That's simple not sustainable as things stand so something has to give way (or preferably several things a little). I'm not convinced many people are willing to compromise even a little though so the problem will continue, constantly patched but never repaired.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

jamesrage said:

Should the minimum wage be raised?


yes
No
It should be repealed.
Other.


I say yes and it should automatically go up or down depending on the cost living.Businesses can not be trusted to do the right thing and without minimum wage laws individuals would still be getting paid peanuts and living in **** hole shacks like they were in the days of Andrew Carnegie and other robber barons.

Yes I realize this opinion differs from most conservatives.Most conservatives and republicans in general seem to think companies should be allowed to someone 20 cents an hour if they want to and use the crock of **** excuse "but its a entry level job" to justify it. I know that people should not be paid peanuts when they are doing most of the work while the pay of some fat cat on top keeps going up. Plus with outsourcing, the scum in office trying to pass amnesty and import more workers, automization and colleges flooding the labor market with college grads all those jobs are going to be limited. We will be living in a take what you can get job market which means many people regardless of education or experience will be working at walmarts,mcdonalds and other low wage jobs.

Click to expand...

With this in the news recently, I've heard some folks talking about this.

It's an interesting debate and there is a community in Washington State that has recently raised the minimum to $15/hour. There should be some interesting data produced from this to review, but that is some time away.

This is obviously a social welfare thing and is intended to augment the wages of those who are trying to make their way in a too expensive world. However, this will also be paid to those who are working after school and just trying to have a little cash to see a movie.

Perhaps, the minimum wage should be established and the difference between what is paid and what is earned made up by the local community in the form of a credit per hour and added to a credit card kind of a thingy. In this way, the local folks could make their voices heard and there could also be a pathway from unemployment to employment without that sudden drop off from getting benefits to not getting benefits.

Whatever the system, determining what the level of a minimum wage should be is a constant question. As I heard in Washington state in one community, that level is $15/hour. I understand the Feds are talking about 9.00. 9.00 in New York is different that 9.00 in Des Moines.

Another question which seems appropriate is whether or not this is an issue that should be considered at the Federal level. Where is the Constitutional justification?

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

jamesrage said:

Wrong.The free marke could care less what an employee is worth. What they care about is lowest amount they can get away with paying someone to do a job.



If welfare is cut and or the amount of time someone can receive welfare is shortened many people wouldn't have a choice but to take that 4 dollar, 3 dollar or even 1 dollar an hour job.




No they wouldn't.Workers in China make 23- 33 cents an hour for 80 hours a week. Most Americans don't give two ****s that Chinese workers are making next to nothing.So they wouldn't be all that outraged if Americans were making next to nothing.

Chinese Workers Pay for Wal-Mart's Low Prices
Li said these factories often require employees to work as many as 80 hours per week during the busy season for $75 to $110 per month,

Click to expand...

What were the Chinese workers earning before they took these jobs?

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

code1211 said:

What were the Chinese workers earning before they took these jobs?

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They were working the fields or scrounging for food. The reason they do these jobs is because their old jobs were worse, otherwise they'd be back out in the fields. Despite how low their pay is, to them it's better than the alternative. For some reason people want to take away the ****ty jobs they do have and leave them with no job at all, as if that were preferable.

All people must go through hard times in order to get to better times. We went through the industrial revolution and came out of it a better society. China is growing and the influx of money is improving the conditions for the poor dramatically compared to what it used to be. I gladly buy lots of things from China and I sleep well at night knowing that I've helped them out at least a little.

I mean, how can poorer countries like China pull themselves up by their bootstraps without any kind of edge in the market or influx of money?

jamesrage said:

Wrong.The free marke could care less what an employee is worth. What they care about is lowest amount they can get away with paying someone to do a job.



If welfare is cut and or the amount of time someone can receive welfare is shortened many people wouldn't have a choice but to take that 4 dollar, 3 dollar or even 1 dollar an hour job.




No they wouldn't.Workers in China make 23- 33 cents an hour for 80 hours a week. Most Americans don't give two ****s that Chinese workers are making next to nothing.So they wouldn't be all that outraged if Americans were making next to nothing.

Chinese Workers Pay for Wal-Mart's Low Prices
Li said these factories often require employees to work as many as 80 hours per week during the busy season for $75 to $110 per month,

Click to expand...

You should follow your convictions and lead the charge by boycotting all Chinese made products. Good luck.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

RabidAlpaca said:

They were working the fields or scrounging for food. The reason they do these jobs is because their old jobs were worse, otherwise they'd be back out in the fields. Despite how low their pay is, to them it's better than the alternative. For some reason people want to take away the ****ty jobs they do have and leave them with no job at all, as if that were preferable.

All people must go through hard times in order to get to better times. We went through the industrial revolution and came out of it a better society. China is growing and the influx of money is improving the conditions for the poor dramatically compared to what it used to be. I gladly buy lots of things from China and I sleep well at night knowing that I've helped them out at least a little.

I mean, how can poorer countries like China pull themselves up by their bootstraps without any kind of edge in the market or influx of money?



You should follow your convictions and lead the charge by boycotting all Chinese made products. Good luck.

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Greater changes have been made with more modest beginnings.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Yes, so inflation increases and we are right back to where we were. Its a vicious cycle. Soon our skilled workers will be flocking to McDonalds because the Federal Government is mandating them to get paid more than the salaried employees, for half the work.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

RabidAlpaca said:

They were working the fields or scrounging for food. The reason they do these jobs is because their old jobs were worse, otherwise they'd be back out in the fields. Despite how low their pay is, to them it's better than the alternative. For some reason people want to take away the ****ty jobs they do have and leave them with no job at all, as if that were preferable.

All people must go through hard times in order to get to better times. We went through the industrial revolution and came out of it a better society. China is growing and the influx of money is improving the conditions for the poor dramatically compared to what it used to be. I gladly buy lots of things from China and I sleep well at night knowing that I've helped them out at least a little.

I mean, how can poorer countries like China pull themselves up by their bootstraps without any kind of edge in the market or influx of money?



You should follow your convictions and lead the charge by boycotting all Chinese made products. Good luck.

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Justifying human and abuse and slavery because you like lower prices? You may be fine with people suffering so you can enjoy lower prices but many arent. These exploited workers have to work there because they have no choice. Many are even forced into it whether they like it or not. Sweat shops and slave labor is not doing the workers any favors. Its just something greedy consumers convince themselves of to justify it.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Kreton said:

Justifying human and abuse and slavery because you like lower prices? You may be fine with people suffering so you can enjoy lower prices but many arent. These exploited workers have to work there because they have no choice. Many are even forced into it whether they like it or not. Sweat shops and slave labor is not doing the workers any favors. Its just something greedy consumers convince themselves of to justify it.

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You talk about Chinese workers like they were living the high life before. They had nothing out in the rural areas, but now that have a pay check, a home, food. Is it the standard of life we would expect? Hell no! But then it would be a downgrade for us.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Hamster Buddha said:

You talk about Chinese workers like they were living the high life before. They had nothing out in the rural areas, but now that have a pay check, a home, food. Is it the standard of life we would expect? Hell no! But then it would be a downgrade for us.

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So since they were born into that ****ed up system they should be glad they are in it now? What kind of logic is that? You were born a slave so stop bitching that you're a slave. :doh

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

I think minimum wage should be raised to at least $20/hour. I think it would be a huge boon to our economy.

But it should be in conjunction with more isolationist policies. The so-called "free trade" experiment has proven to not be the USA's best interests.

Put a moratorium on all immigration until unemployment levels drop down very low. Even lower than they what they were during the Bush 43 boom economy years when any American who wanted a job could get a job. Militarize the southern border. Put bounties on the heads of human traffickers.

Phase in huge tariffs on imported goods. Nike, you cannot continue to sell your sneakers in the USA unless you make them in the USA. HP, you cannot continue to sell your computers in the USA unless you start making them in the USA again. etc etc..

Also, foreigners are crowding out American students in the America's institutions of higher learning. We need to stop issuing so many student visas.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Kreton said:

Justifying human and abuse and slavery because you like lower prices? You may be fine with people suffering so you can enjoy lower prices but many arent. These exploited workers have to work there because they have no choice. Many are even forced into it whether they like it or not. Sweat shops and slave labor is not doing the workers any favors. Its just something greedy consumers convince themselves of to justify it.

Click to expand...

You're so full of it. What do you think their lives would be like without that job? The only reason anybody buys stuff from China is the price. That is their ONLY edge in the market. If you take away that edge, all their jobs go away and those workers will be unemployed.

Why do you prefer they starve or work out in the field than take a job voluntarily that pays better? I just sent off one of my circuit boards to be manufactured in China yesterday. I feel proud knowing that I'll be helping some poor bastards make a few bucks to feed their families, because without my money, they wouldn't have any.

Kreton said:

So since they were born into that ****ed up system they should be glad they are in it now? What kind of logic is that? You were born a slave so stop bitching that you're a slave. :doh

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No, it's a process. Their standard of living is improving, and is light years ahead of what it used to be. How do you think their standard of living would be if all the foreign money coming into China just stopped like you want?

Muhammed said:

But it should be in conjunction with more isolationist policies. The so-called "free trade" experiment has proven to not be the USA's best interests.

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One of the most highly ignorant statements I've seen in a while. Why do you think the average American can afford a car, a computer, a cell phone, a TV, a microwave, a dvd player, etc. etc. etc.? International trade is what has gotten us insanely inexpensive products that have been mass produced. America doesn't possess the manufacturing capabilities, nor the raw materials, nor the skilled labor to produce what's being produced.

For some reason your solution is to completely **** our economy and make everything extremely expensive.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

RabidAlpaca said:

You're so full of it. What do you think their lives would be like without that job? The only reason anybody buys stuff from China is the price. That is their ONLY edge in the market. If you take away that edge, all their jobs go away and those workers will be unemployed.

Why do you prefer they starve or work out in the field than take a job voluntarily that pays better? I just sent off one of my circuit boards to be manufactured in China yesterday. I feel proud knowing that I'll be helping some poor bastards make a few bucks to feed their families, because without my money, they wouldn't have any.



No, it's a process. Their standard of living is improving, and is light years ahead of what it used to be. How do you think their standard of living would be if all the foreign money coming into China just stopped like you want?



One of the most highly ignorant statements I've seen in a while. Why do you think the average American can afford a car, a computer, a cell phone, a TV, a microwave, a dvd player, etc. etc. etc.? International trade is what has gotten us insanely inexpensive products that have been mass produced. America doesn't possess the manufacturing capabilities, nor the raw materials, nor the skilled labor to produce what's being produced.

For some reason your solution is to completely **** our economy and make everything extremely expensive.

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I am sure southern slave owners justified abusing and exploiting people for their own gains in the same manner. Noone is better for being abused or forced into slavery. You cannot justify that. The only people who are benefitting from this exploitation are the business owners and consumers who feel it is ok to ruin thousands of lives to save you a little bit of money.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Kreton said:

I am sure southern slave owners justified abusing and exploiting people for their own gains in the same manner. Noone is better for being abused or forced into slavery. You cannot justify that. The only people who are benefitting from this exploitation are the business owners and consumers who feel it is ok to ruin thousands of lives to save you a little bit of money.

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I'm confused. So you want me to stop buying things from China, and you think that will somehow make the life in China magically become better? Can you explain your end game or logic in any of that? You think that if we stop buying things from China, they will RAISE their prices to start paying their workers more?

And you're on the hyperbole express comparing this to slavery.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

RabidAlpaca said:

I'm confused. So you want me to stop buying things from China, and you think that will somehow make the life in China magically become better? Can you explain your end game or logic in any of that? You think that if we stop buying things from China, they will RAISE their prices to start paying their workers more?

And you're on the hyperbole express comparing this to slavery.

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Yea, manufacturers adapt to demand. And slavery and sweat shops are not that different.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Kreton said:

Yea, manufacturers adapt to demand. And slavery and sweat shops are not that different.

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So in your mind, if you get enough of your buddies to stop buying from China, they'll lose so much business, that Chinese businessmen will say "Oh! We're losing business, so we should RAISE our prices and pay our workers MORE!"

Do you have any idea how supply and demand works? Why does anyone send anything to China? Why did I send my circuit board designs there and not have it done here in Europe? Because it costs about 1/4th what it would here. If you take away the price edge, they have no edge at all, and as such will have no job.

Please explain how reducing money going to China will magically make the life of the average Chinese citizen better, and not far, far worse. What the hell have you done to help these people other than complain on the internet?

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

jamesrage said:

Should the minimum wage be raised?

yes
No
It should be repealed.
Other.

I say yes and it should automatically go up or down depending on the cost living.Businesses can not be trusted to do the right thing and without minimum wage laws individuals would still be getting paid peanuts and living in **** hole shacks like they were in the days of Andrew Carnegie and other robber barons.

Yes I realize this opinion differs from most conservatives.Most conservatives and republicans in general seem to think companies should be allowed to someone 20 cents an hour if they want to and use the crock of **** excuse "but its a entry level job" to justify it. I know that people should not be paid peanuts when they are doing most of the work while the pay of some fat cat on top keeps going up. Plus with outsourcing, the scum in office trying to pass amnesty and import more workers, automization and colleges flooding the labor market with college grads all those jobs are going to be limited. We will be living in a take what you can get job market which means many people regardless of education or experience will be working at walmarts,mcdonalds and other low wage jobs.

Click to expand...

If we were talking about some material item and how much we should pay for it, whether or not the government should be able to dictate to us what its price should be, etc. I think then the discussion assumes one particular tone. But if we change the discussion and start talking about people qua sentient beings rather than material items, of a sudden the tenor and tone of the discussion takes an immediate turn to something entirely different.

If we stipulate that some "minimum" wage was absolutely a given, aren't we then also stipulating that anything that person brings to a company, apart from the fact that they are... sentient, is wholly irrelevant? We're going to pay them at least the minimum wage, be it $10/hr or $15/hr or whatever, merely because of their sentience - irrespective of any value they might otherwise bring or not bring, the sole criteria for the minimum wage we pay them is strictly because they are human.

If humans can be defined then as having "minimum worth" - i.e. whatever worth we arbitrarily assign to them as being "worth at least this much" merely because of their sentience, how much value do we truly place on their humanity if we permit ourselves to arbitrarily define it thus?

My point I guess is this, entering this discussion thinking we can, by fiat, define a person's minimum worth (regardless our intentions) has the attendant consequence of admitting that a person's worth is altogether random, a function of whatever whim of criteria we, not they might conjure - which is something I think does a severe disservice to us all. Acknowledging the goal of ensuring people have opportunity to provide for themselves and their families, I don't believe defining their worth in arbitrary terms is a humane tactic to take to achieve that goal.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

code1211 said:

What were the Chinese workers earning before they took these jobs?

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They earning only slightly better than what they were before so we should be alright that they are still making next to nothing while?

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

RabidAlpaca said:

Why do you think the average American can afford a car, a computer, a cell phone, a TV, a microwave, a dvd player, etc. etc. etc.?

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I don't think that.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

yes it should but it probably wont happen.