Should the minimum wage be raised?[W:30]

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Muhammed said:

I don't think that.

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So you're just ignorant? Most Americans have all of those things.

Though I think it's cute you use your made-in-China computer to decry the evils of globalization. Keep being a hypocrite.

jamesrage said:

They earning only slightly better than what they were before so we should be alright that they are still making next to nothing while?

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I think you drastically underestimate how poor China really used to be. Mass starvation, insanely back breaking labor, and even no payment whatsoever were the norm. Take a look at Afghanistan for instance. When I was there we hired locals to work on our COP doing random jobs that sometimes weren't even important. We paid them about $2/day and that was the most they had ever made in their lives.

If you take away China's price advantage, NOBODY would buy from China. I deal with them regularly for manufacturing and it's a pain in the ass. We'd all much rather have stuff manufactured in Europe or the US but the cost can not be ignored. If you take away their price advantage, there won't be money flowing into China like there is now, and China will return to being a very, very poor country.

You act like there's a 3rd option where Chinese workers get paid well and everyone in the world still buys from China, and that's not going to happen.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

jamesrage said:

They earning only slightly better than what they were before so we should be alright that they are still making next to nothing while?

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I don't know.

If YOU don't know, and it appears that you don't, how can yo make such condemning statements?

What does that amount of money buy in China? What did they earn prior to that? Does this improve their situation?

Were these people conscripted like British sailors in the 1700's or did they choose to gain a job in the factories that are offensive to you?

I'm just looking to get the whole story.

Are you?

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

I am slightly okay with matching the minimum wage we have now to adjust to inflation. Though even this seems unfair as no other employee gets this benefit; why should the minimum wage people get tied to inflation instead of everyone.

I am completely against raising the minimum wage to a "living wage." Not every job is worth a living wage. People should know that education is what is needed to leave these jobs and then they should move on. Some jobs are just not worth a living wage. But if we do force a living wage, some of these jobs will be automated shortly afterward.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

RabidAlpaca said:

So you're just ignorant? Most Americans have all of those things.

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Actually, most Americans can't afford jack ****.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Moderator's Warning:

Let's remember to keep things civil.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Muhammed said:

Actually, most Americans can't afford jack ****.

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LOL, OK, if you don't want to have a real discussion and want to throw out childish one-liners, I think we're done here. Not sure if you're actually in Mecca or if you just did that to be ironic, but here in America even the poor have smartphones, computers, TVs, food in their bellies, and a roof over their heads.

But by all means, don't let facts stop you from using your Chinese made computer to decry global trade.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

RabidAlpaca said:

But by all means, don't let facts stop you from using your Chinese made computer to decry global trade.

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Yes, I'll continue to do that until computers are made in America again.

The fact is that we have a gigantic trade deficit with China. Do you deny that fact?

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

RabidAlpaca said:

Why does anyone send anything to China? Why did I send my circuit board designs there and not have it done here in Europe?

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Because you can pay the Chinese next to nothing to make it.There are no safety laws to worry about, no minimum wage laws to worry about, nor are there any environmental safety laws to worry about.

Because it costs about 1/4th what it would here.

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Only 1/4? That seems way off. With just minimum wage Americans make at least 90% more than their Chinese counterparts.But considering the fact factory jobs in America generally pay more than minimum wage its way higher than 90%.

If you take away the price edge, they have no edge at all, and as such will have no job.

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I do not want the Chinese having those jobs.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Muhammed said:

Yes, I'll continue to do that until computers are made in America again.

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This one is:

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Neomalthusian said:

This one is:

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So ****ing what???

That is only 1.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

jamesrage said:

Because you can pay the Chinese next to nothing to make it.There are no safety laws to worry about, no minimum wage laws to worry about, nor are there any environmental safety laws to worry about.



Only 1/4? That seems way off. With just minimum wage Americans make at least 90% more than their Chinese counterparts.But considering the fact factory jobs in America generally pay more than minimum wage its way higher than 90%.



I do not want the Chinese having those jobs.

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Exactly! You favor minimum wage for Chinese workers because you don't want them to have those jobs! For third world countries the only advantage they can offer is cheap, you take that away from them and they have nothing to offer at all.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

RabidAlpaca said:

Exactly! You favor minimum wage for Chinese workers because you don't want them to have those jobs! For third world countries the only advantage they can offer is cheap, you take that away from them and they have nothing to offer at all.

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The problem with this whole debate is that you have one side attempting to argue the topic rationally, objectively while the other side is arguing it purely from raw emotion and "feel-goodism," which is all the concept of a "minimum wage" really is.

Sadly, the concept itself demeans, rather than uplifts the very people for whom so many feel so strongly - reducing their value to little more than some arbitrary "minimum" amount.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Muhammed said:

So ****ing what???

That is only 1.

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Then the choice is obvious! But nothing else.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

DA60 said:

I believe it should be repealed for several reasons.

- the 'free' market knows far better how much an employee is worth then government does

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The government is simply protecting its electorate from paid slave labor. Even the most uneducated deserve to be able to afford the basic necessities if they are willing to put in an honest day's work.

- there is no chance of 'robber barons' paying virtually nothing to employees again as back then there was no government welfare programs. No one is going to work for $4 an hour when they make more then that (in essence) sitting at home in a welfare apartment collecting food stamps and Obamacare. People would have to be paid enough to make it worthwhile to stop sucking on the government teat.

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You have obviously no idea what you are talking about. There are millions of immigrants in this country willing to work for well under the minimum wage. When you're previous life back in your home country consisted of living on less than $2 a day, $4 or even $3 an hour is a fortune. Especially when you have an entire family of 8-10 people living in a very small apartment all working for slave wages. They are willing to live in those kind of conditions to escape their country and live here. Americans would not be willing to live like that. So in essence, an unregulated wage only promotes companies from hiring foreign workers migrating from outside the US.

- the current minimum wage is inflexible, being (federally) the same whether you live in Manhattan or 50 miles outside of Des Moines. Private enterprise would obviously pay each worker according to the local needs if they want people to fill their vacancies.

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Again, all deregulating the wage would encourage and would cause is an influx of migrant workers into your community.

- if some stubborn corporations insist on paying people well below the national average, the masses could show their outrage by economically boycotting those corporations until they raise their wages...nothing usually works faster on corporations then mass economic boycott.

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Then the only people you hurt are the migrant workers who you've encouraged to live in your community by offering low paying work.

- finally, I simply believe the government has no business telling private businesses what they can pay their employees.

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The whole purpose of having a government is to keep the country from being run by corporations. While we are nearly already run by corporations, at least, for the time being, corporations are sensitive to our concerns and we have power over them thru the government. That is why it is imperative we have a government that at least sets forth basic responsible business guidelines and regulations.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

hallam said:

I am slightly okay with matching the minimum wage we have now to adjust to inflation. Though even this seems unfair as no other employee gets this benefit; why should the minimum wage people get tied to inflation instead of everyone.

I am completely against raising the minimum wage to a "living wage." Not every job is worth a living wage. People should know that education is what is needed to leave these jobs and then they should move on. Some jobs are just not worth a living wage. But if we do force a living wage, some of these jobs will be automated shortly afterward.

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Completely disagree. There are people that simply do not have the money or the mind to attend higher education. Not to mention, doing so, may even put them even further into debt. As most who don't have the mind or money to attend higher education usually get worthless degree's and end up working where they are anyway. Maybe in a higher paying position, but generally not making even enough to pay off their student debt which puts them in even a worse economic situation. If we made higher education mandatory and free, there would still need to be people working at the fast food places and in lower income jobs. Those jobs will never disappear and there will always be people trying to live off those wages. The only difference would be that the person salting your fries would be an educated fry salter.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

It's a vicious cycle. Anyone with half of a functioning brain capable of logical reasoning and basic arithmetic can figure this one out.

Step one: End the Fed.

Step two: **** step one just solved 75% of our problems, who wants to order pizza?

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Capster78 said:

The government is simply protecting its electorate from paid slave labor. Even the most uneducated deserve to be able to afford the basic necessities if they are willing to put in an honest day's work.

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Nonsense. Nowhere is it written in the Constitution, the UN Charter or (to my knowledge) ANY internationally respected, human rights organization that a full time job MUST provide the basic necessities of life. It's just some mooching nonsense the ignorant masses cooked up. A worker should be paid exactly what they're worth to their employer...no more, no less. And if the worker doesn't like it...quit.

You have obviously no idea what you are talking about. There are millions of immigrants in this country willing to work for well under the minimum wage. When you're previous life back in your home country consisted of living on less than $2 a day, $4 or even $3 an hour is a fortune. Especially when you have an entire family of 8-10 people living in a very small apartment all working for slave wages. They are willing to live in those kind of conditions to escape their country and live here. Americans would not be willing to live like that. So in essence, an unregulated wage only promotes companies from hiring foreign workers migrating from outside the US.



Again, all deregulating the wage would encourage and would cause is an influx of migrant workers into your community.




Then the only people you hurt are the migrant workers who you've encouraged to live in your community by offering low paying work.

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If they are illegal migrant workers...I DON'T CARE IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT. Pay too little...go home.

And if they are legal migrant workers...they have access to free housing, food stamps and Obamacare. If that is not enough - tough.

There are probably well over a billion people in the world that would LOVE to have enough shelter, food and medical care for sitting on their butts...complain to them.

The whole purpose of having a government is to keep the country from being run by corporations. While we are nearly already run by corporations, at least, for the time being, corporations are sensitive to our concerns and we have power over them thru the government. That is why it is imperative we have a government that at least sets forth basic responsible business guidelines and regulations.

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So the government keeps corporations under control?

LOLOLOL.

Have you never heard of crony capitalism, too big to fail, mark-to-market bank rule changes, the military industrial complex, QE (which props up the stock market for corporations), low interest rates (which only the rich can fully utlitize AND which are destroying the income from savings of those on fixed incomes), the carry trade (a domain of only the rich), corporate political donations and government bailouts of their corporate buddies at AIG and GM?

If you think the government (either dem or rep) serves the people more then corporations...then IMO, you have ZERO idea what you are talking about on this subject.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Quote Originally Posted by Muhammed View Post
Actually, most Americans can't afford jack ****.

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RabidAlpaca said:

LOL, OK, if you don't want to have a real discussion and want to throw out childish one-liners, I think we're done here. Not sure if you're actually in Mecca or if you just did that to be ironic, but here in America even the poor have smartphones, computers, TVs, food in their bellies, and a roof over their heads.

But by all means, don't let facts stop you from using your Chinese made computer to decry global trade.

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Actually Muhammed is right. Most Americans can't afford the smartphones, computers, TV ect. But they don't let that stop them from buying it.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

RabidAlpaca said:

Exactly! You favor minimum wage for Chinese workers because you don't want them to have those jobs! For third world countries the only advantage they can offer is cheap, you take that away from them and they have nothing to offer at all.

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Are you familiar with what takes in these places? This whole theory you have that they should be grateful since something is better than nothing. Many of these shops are run under brutal conditions and are far from voluntary. The only justification you seem to have is that it makes things cheaper for you and that they might be worse off. Sorry but noone is better off to be forced to live like that. There are hundreds of millions of men, women and children being forced to work off debts for imaginary reasons. Working 100 hour weeks for nothing more than food and cramped quarters. And being beaten, raped and belittled at their employers leisure. As I've already pointed out this is pretty much the same as slavery.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

DA60 said:

Nonsense. Nowhere is it written in the Constitution, the UN Charter or (to my knowledge) ANY internationally respected, human rights organization that a full time job MUST provide the basic necessities of life. It's just some mooching nonsense the ignorant masses cooked up. A worker should be paid exactly what they're worth to their employer...no more, no less. And if the worker doesn't like it...quit.

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Then what reason is there for someone to work at all if what they are to be paid does not provide them with what they need? It would be better to simply live off public assistance or to get involved with illegal activity to make a living. The whole point of raising the minimum wage to a livable wage is to get people off public assistance and encourage people to enter the workforce. Corporations should be paying their workers, not tax payers.

If they are illegal migrant workers...I DON'T CARE IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT. Pay too little...go home.

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I am not even talking about illegal migrant workers, I am talking about legal workers. If we were to deregulate the minimum wage, companies would simply recruit legal workers from overseas on work visas to come to the US and work for them. By raising the minimum wage and making it a living wage, we will encourage Americans that would normally not think about working a lower paying job think about taking the job. Which would lower our unemployment rate drastically and open up jobs americans want to do.

And if they are legal migrant workers...they have access to free housing, food stamps and Obamacare. If that is not enough - tough.

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The point is to get them off of that. It is much more expensive to us to have them on government assistance then it would be to raise minimum wage $5 or $6 an hour. If the minimum was at least 24-26k a year, it would greatly reduce the number of people on government assistance. Again, let companies pay workers salaries instead of us tax payers. Some of the largest, most profitable companies in the world pay their workers here in the US the least.

There are probably well over a billion people in the world that would LOVE to have enough shelter, food and medical care for sitting on their butts...complain to them.

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I know, I have seen them. I have lived in the Philippines where I have personally seen and talked to people working on less than $200 a month. Living in homes with no electricity or plumbing. Many families with members who are nearly starving to death and suffering from disease. Yes, I have seen it, and it is not something you want in your city or town. That is the difference between a country where the government is simply unable to help the people and a country where it can.

So the government keeps corporations under control?

LOLOLOL.

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Yes. Is it perfect, no. But its better they exist then if the did not. Imagine not having something like the food and drug administration around. Who would hold companies responsible for selling harmful products to people? Who would encourage them to modify products for consumer safety in mind and deter them from just looking at the bottom line?

Have you never heard of crony capitalism, too big to fail, mark-to-market bank rule changes, the military industrial complex, QE (which props up the stock market for corporations), low interest rates (which only the rich can fully utlitize AND which are destroying the income from savings of those on fixed incomes), the carry trade (a domain of only the rich), corporate political donations and government bailouts of their corporate buddies at AIG and GM?

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While I don't like that the government bailed out big business, I have yet to decide if it was really the wrong thing to do. When I look at the results from that, the companies that were bailed out paid back the money and are now back on track making profit and employing US workers. If the car industry and banking industry had tanked, our unemployment rate would have taken a big hit and I am not sure if american companies would have been the ones that would have taken up the slack. We could have seen an increase of foreign companies, especially in the car industry, take up that slack which would have left US workers in the wind.

And the military industrial complex is a rediculous tin foil hat theory. We left the industrial age decades ago.

If you think the government (either dem or rep) serves the people more then corporations...then IMO, you have ZERO idea what you are talking about on this subject.

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I did not say they served the people more than the corporations, I said that it is the only power we have over them. I would rather have some leverage then none at all. But you are correct, there probably should be more government regulations on companies.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Kreton said:

Are you familiar with what takes in these places? This whole theory you have that they should be grateful since something is better than nothing. Many of these shops are run under brutal conditions and are far from voluntary. The only justification you seem to have is that it makes things cheaper for you and that they might be worse off. Sorry but noone is better off to be forced to live like that. There are hundreds of millions of men, women and children being forced to work off debts for imaginary reasons. Working 100 hour weeks for nothing more than food and cramped quarters. And being beaten, raped and belittled at their employers leisure. As I've already pointed out this is pretty much the same as slavery.

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First, that is not how all Chinese jobs operate. There have been a few instances, but the vast majority of workers are not being raped and abused. They've voluntarily chosen to work there because the alternative is worse. Either starve, scrounge for food, work the fields, etc. You want to take away the only advantage they have so that they will be forced to do the other things.

The market is simple, if they raise their prices, they will lose business. The only reason anyone buys from China is because it's cheap. That is a FACT. I want you to explain to me how LESS money flowing into China will somehow magically improve their standard of living.

And I didn't say **** about being grateful, but I'm willing to bet they want to keep their jobs.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

RabidAlpaca said:

First, that is not how all Chinese jobs operate. There have been a few instances, but the vast majority of workers are not being raped and abused. They've voluntarily chosen to work there because the alternative is worse. Either starve, scrounge for food, work the fields, etc. You want to take away the only advantage they have so that they will be forced to do the other things.

The market is simple, if they raise their prices, they will lose business. The only reason anyone buys from China is because it's cheap. That is a FACT. I want you to explain to me how LESS money flowing into China will somehow magically improve their standard of living.

And I didn't say **** about being grateful, but I'm willing to bet they want to keep their jobs.

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I am willing to bet they dont.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

code1211 said:

It's an interesting debate and there is a community in Washington State that has recently raised the minimum to $15/hour. There should be some interesting data produced from this to review, but that is some time away.

...

As I heard in Washington state in one community, that level is $15/hour.

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Since you referenced it, that community is also facing its own confusing exemptions due to a recent court ruling. Have been following this closely for the same reason you mentioned... because there should be some interesting data. But now... much less of that data.

Link: SeaTac’s $15 minimum wage goes into effect

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

Kreton said:

I am willing to bet they dont.

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Then you would be hard-put to explain the masses of people ruthlessly competing for those jobs. It is not uncommon for people to have to bribe their way in.


The mistake people always make when discussing early-industrial conditions is to compare them to post-industrial conditions. When the comparison being made by those involved is between industrial conditions and agricultural conditions.

Re: Should the minimum wage be raised?

As for the MW, I oppose it entirely. Firstly, it harms the poorest among us by moving the bottom rungs of life's ladder out of their reach. Secondly, the MW serves to effect a wealth transfer from poor Americans to upper-middle-class Americans and illegal immigrants - precisely the opposite direction of where wealth transfer programs should be directed. Finally, I find it morally repellent that the rest of us should tell someone "The current low value of your labor is distasteful to us. Get thee into unemployment and poverty, therefore, that we may not be offended by the thought of you."