View Poll Results: The Greatest General in History

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  • Napoleon Bonaparta

    6 13.95%
  • Genghis Khan

    11 25.58%
  • Julius Caesar

    5 11.63%
  • Salah ad-Din, Yusuf ibn Ayyub

    1 2.33%
  • Georgy Zhukov

    0 0%
  • Alexander the Great

    11 25.58%
  • Sir Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington

    2 4.65%
  • Charles Martel

    0 0%
  • Sun Tzu

    6 13.95%
  • Akbar the Great

    1 2.33%
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Thread: The Greatest General in History

  1. #211
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    apdst's Avatar
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    Yes, it really did.

    "The rapid defeat of Japan's Kwantung Army has been argued to be a significant factor in the Japanese surrender and the end of World War II, as Japan realized the Soviets were willing and able to take the cost of invasion of its Home Islands, after their rapid conquest of Manchuria and southern Sakhalin."

    Soviet invasion of Manchuria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are nine sources for that statement alone. The Japanese, just like the Germans, feared capture by the Soviets way more than capture by the Western allies, so they tried to surrender before having to fight the Soviets.
    The inflating of Soviet importance knows no bounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  2. #212
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The inflating of Soviet importance knows no bounds.
    The statistics can not lie. They are merely numbers; data.

  3. #213
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    The statistics can not lie. They are merely numbers; data.
    Statistics mean nothing; historical facts mean everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #214
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Yeah, I read all that mis-information.

    For the last time: the specific plan--Zitadel--that showed what units, how many units, avenues of approach, objectives, everything, vame form Ultra's monitoring of Enigma messages.

    This is information that Lucy couldn't get his hands on; "Lucy" was the code name of the agent, not the spy program. The program was known as "The Red Trio Network" ran by Sandor Rado. Rudolf Rösler was, "Lucy".

    When did I say they did anything wrong?
    Um, yes, you did. To wit:

    Roessler's first major contribution to Soviet intelligence came in May 1941 when he was able to deliver details of Operation Barbarossa, Germany's impending invasion of the Soviet Union. Following the invasion, in June 1941, Lucy was regarded as a VYRDO source, i.e. of the highest importance, and to be transmitted immediately. Over the next two years "Lucy" was able to supply the Soviets with high grade military intelligence. During the autumn of 1942, "Lucy" provided the Soviets with detailed information about Case Blue, the German operations against Stalingrad and the Caucasus; during this period decisions taken in Berlin were arriving in Moscow on average within a ten-hour period; on one occasion in just six hours, not much longer than it took to reach German front line units. Roessler, and Rado's network, particularly Allan Foote, Rado's main radio operator, were prepared to work flat out to maintain the speed and flow of the information. At the peak of its operation, Rado's network was enciphering and sending several hundred messages per month, many of these from "Lucy". Meanwhile Roessler alone had to do all the receiving, decoding and evaluating of the "Lucy" messages before passing them on; for him during this period it became a full-time operation. In the summer of 1943, the culmination of "Lucy's" success came in transmitting the details of Germany's plans for Operation Zitadelle, a planned summer offensive against the Kursk salient, which became a strategic defeat for the German army—the Battle of Kursk gave the Red Army the initiative on the eastern front for the remainder of the war.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  5. #215
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    Yes, it really did.

    "The rapid defeat of Japan's Kwantung Army has been argued to be a significant factor in the Japanese surrender and the end of World War II, as Japan realized the Soviets were willing and able to take the cost of invasion of its Home Islands, after their rapid conquest of Manchuria and southern Sakhalin."

    Soviet invasion of Manchuria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are nine sources for that statement alone. The Japanese, just like the Germans, feared capture by the Soviets way more than capture by the Western allies, so they tried to surrender before having to fight the Soviets.
    The Japanese surrender didn't have anything to do with Soviet invasion it was unlikely that the Soviet Union would be capable of gathering the naval resources for mounting a cross-strait invasion of the heavily defended home islands. What the invasion of Manchuria did however was obliterate the Japanese strategic map. Prior to the invasion Japan despite mounting losses held an apparently strong position in China. They had retreated to the coasts and tightened their lines of defense but they still dominated everything from Guangzhou to Beijing, they retained control of a strong puppet in Manchukuo, and their old dominion over Korea was unchallenged. This continental Empire gave Japan hope that it could drag out the war to such an extent that it might force favorable peace terms on the Allies, moreover it gave psychological confidence. The loss of islands and fleets was one thing, but the Empire was still relatively 'intact'. After the invasion it was clear that Japanese field armies and garrisons in China were unequivocally doomed and that nothing but the Home Islands could be defended.

    That being said there is overwhelming evidence that the atomic bombings figured more prominently in forcing the immediate Japanese capitulation. It is incredibly unlikely that a swift unconditional Japanese surrender would have been forthcoming in mid August just because of the loss of Manchukuo-Manchuria and Korea. Devastating yes but it did not directly imperil the Home Islands nor did it deflect from the possibility of a terrible resistance that might minimize the peace conditions. With the atomic bombings it completed the strategic picture of total and utter defeat.

  6. #216
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    It's bizarre, how ardent some American supporters of the Hollywood version of events can be. The Eastern Front was 80% of the entire Second World War, and the USSR was absolutely and completely the most important Ally of the coalition. The statistics alone prove that nothing else could be the case. Add to this the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, wiping the Japanese out of China, and there's truly no way to conclude that the USSR was anything but the most important member of the coalition by a mile.

    But, for some reason, that is unstomachable to people who think that the world is black and white, and their politics dictate that someone who carries the name communist must be an awful, evil, idiotic, baby-killing monster.

    I think it's a sad way to go through history and life, unable to appreciate other viewpoints and twisting objective facts.
    It's also bizarre how Eurocentric some people can be. Everyone seems to forget the struggle of China against the Japanese Empire that lasted for longer than any other belligerent and likely prevented any Japanese ambition in the direction of the Soviet Union. Much moreso than Khalkin Gol or any other border engagement ever could have. The sacrifice China and its people made was monstrous and critical.

    Sorry just my peeve.

  7. #217
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Um, yes, you did. To wit:

    Roessler's first major contribution to Soviet intelligence came in May 1941 when he was able to deliver details of Operation Barbarossa, Germany's impending invasion of the Soviet Union. Following the invasion, in June 1941, Lucy was regarded as a VYRDO source, i.e. of the highest importance, and to be transmitted immediately. Over the next two years "Lucy" was able to supply the Soviets with high grade military intelligence. During the autumn of 1942, "Lucy" provided the Soviets with detailed information about Case Blue, the German operations against Stalingrad and the Caucasus; during this period decisions taken in Berlin were arriving in Moscow on average within a ten-hour period; on one occasion in just six hours, not much longer than it took to reach German front line units. Roessler, and Rado's network, particularly Allan Foote, Rado's main radio operator, were prepared to work flat out to maintain the speed and flow of the information. At the peak of its operation, Rado's network was enciphering and sending several hundred messages per month, many of these from "Lucy". Meanwhile Roessler alone had to do all the receiving, decoding and evaluating of the "Lucy" messages before passing them on; for him during this period it became a full-time operation. In the summer of 1943, the culmination of "Lucy's" success came in transmitting the details of Germany's plans for Operation Zitadelle, a planned summer offensive against the Kursk salient, which became a strategic defeat for the German army—the Battle of Kursk gave the Red Army the initiative on the eastern front for the remainder of the war.
    Um, no, I didn't!

    Expand your horizons. Wiki is good for general info, but you shouldn't base your historical knowledge strictly upon that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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