View Poll Results: The Greatest General in History

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  • Napoleon Bonaparta

    6 13.95%
  • Genghis Khan

    11 25.58%
  • Julius Caesar

    5 11.63%
  • Salah ad-Din, Yusuf ibn Ayyub

    1 2.33%
  • Georgy Zhukov

    0 0%
  • Alexander the Great

    11 25.58%
  • Sir Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington

    2 4.65%
  • Charles Martel

    0 0%
  • Sun Tzu

    6 13.95%
  • Akbar the Great

    1 2.33%
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Thread: The Greatest General in History

  1. #171
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Battlefield tactics are what win the day. You'll never prove otherwise.
    None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

    Tactics are only one facet of what goes into a battle, and are no substitute for all the preparation necessary to win a battle. We all know that the Germans had world-class tacticians - there were none better! BUT they faced logistical obstacles that greatly hampered their ability to win, such as the difference in rail gauges, the failure to prepare winter clothing, the failure to prepare for the Russian winter and the rains that turned the roads into impassable mud. And then there were the strategic blunders by Hitler, who shifted the focus, the emphasis from Army Group Centre to Army Group South and then back again within a matter of months. And another strategic blunder was their terrible mistreatment of the Soviet towns they captured - the Germans were often welcomed with open arms, but as soon as they found out what the Nazis had in store for them, the people turned against the Germans and either joined with or gave logistics support to the partisans...who took delight in disrupting the rail-borne logistics support that was crucial to the Wehrmacht.

    If battlefield tactics alone are what win the day, then the Germans would have handily defeated the Soviets. Strategy, logistics, and morale are all every bit as important...and without all these, an army is doomed to failure as Alexander found when he decided to find out what India looked like. History is rife with examples of great tacticians who were defeated by their failure to account for all those facets of warfare, from Hannibal to Napoleon to Cornwallis to our great misadventure in Vietnam where we won every battle but lost the war. The very best tactics are in and of themselves insufficient to win a war.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  2. #172
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What are you even talking about?? I never said anything about the Brits having agents operating inside the Soviet Union!
    No, you didn't...but I did talk about Soviet agents in England and America, because if we had fought a war against the Soviets, that intel capability would have been a crucial factor.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  3. #173
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    1. A war with the Soviets would have started in April of 1945 - the U.S. forces in the PTO (most importantly, the B-29 squadrons) were stuck there until August 1945.

    2. We did not have great numbers of ground troops in the PTO - it was island-hopping, remember. Transferring them all to Europe would have made little difference, if any, with the vast numbers needed for warmaking on the Eurasian continent.

    3. You really should read up on how tenacious the Soviet soldiers were. In the beginning, yes, hundreds of thousands surrendered...but as the months went by, the German soldiers wrote letters home about how the Soviet soldiers would fight to the death, even when there was no hope for survival. If you really don't want to dig this up, then read about the Battle of Stalingrad sometime.
    1) You can't factually state what the start date would have been, since it's hypothetical, anyway.

    2) Quality of the American troops in the PTO would offset the lack of quanity. Troops who fought in the PTO would bring a whole new bag of tricks that they learned from the Japanese.

    3) Soviet troops fought to the death, because commisars were standing behind the lines to shoot them if they didn't; that and they were fighting for Mother Russia. They wouldn't have been quite so eager to defend Germany from an American invasion, the same way battle hardened Iraqi troops didn't want to defend Kuwait.

    B-29's based in France and Italy would cut off the Red Army from their base of supply and they would have crumbled.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #174
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    No, you didn't...but I did talk about Soviet agents in England and America, because if we had fought a war against the Soviets, that intel capability would have been a crucial factor.
    IOW, you know you're wrong, so you're going to change the subject.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #175
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

    Tactics are only one facet of what goes into a battle, and are no substitute for all the preparation necessary to win a battle. We all know that the Germans had world-class tacticians - there were none better! BUT they faced logistical obstacles that greatly hampered their ability to win, such as the difference in rail gauges, the failure to prepare winter clothing, the failure to prepare for the Russian winter and the rains that turned the roads into impassable mud. And then there were the strategic blunders by Hitler, who shifted the focus, the emphasis from Army Group Centre to Army Group South and then back again within a matter of months. And another strategic blunder was their terrible mistreatment of the Soviet towns they captured - the Germans were often welcomed with open arms, but as soon as they found out what the Nazis had in store for them, the people turned against the Germans and either joined with or gave logistics support to the partisans...who took delight in disrupting the rail-borne logistics support that was crucial to the Wehrmacht.

    If battlefield tactics alone are what win the day, then the Germans would have handily defeated the Soviets. Strategy, logistics, and morale are all every bit as important...and without all these, an army is doomed to failure as Alexander found when he decided to find out what India looked like. History is rife with examples of great tacticians who were defeated by their failure to account for all those facets of warfare, from Hannibal to Napoleon to Cornwallis to our great misadventure in Vietnam where we won every battle but lost the war. The very best tactics are in and of themselves insufficient to win a war.
    What you obviously don't understand about combat tactics, is that a brilliant tactician will form his tactics to suit all those factors.

    And, we didn't lose Vietnam. Any student of military history knows that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  6. #176
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    1) You can't factually state what the start date would have been, since it's hypothetical, anyway.

    2) Quality of the American troops in the PTO would offset the lack of quanity. Troops who fought in the PTO would bring a whole new bag of tricks that they learned from the Japanese.

    3) Soviet troops fought to the death, because commisars were standing behind the lines to shoot them if they didn't; that and they were fighting for Mother Russia. They wouldn't have been quite so eager to defend Germany from an American invasion, the same way battle hardened Iraqi troops didn't want to defend Kuwait.

    B-29's based in France and Italy would cut off the Red Army from their base of supply and they would have crumbled.
    1. Actually, yes, the start date would have had to be immediate...because the longer we had waited, the greater the repairs and improvements that the Soviets would have made to their lines of communication.

    2. The quality, the discipline and training of the German soldier was the best in the world...and look what the Soviets did to them. You're stuck on the assumption that we were, are, and always will be the best at everything...and you're greatly underestimating your opponent.

    3. Yes, there were commissars...but you're also assuming that patriotism was somehow foreign to the Soviet soldier. In THEIR eyes, the commissar was for the cowards who ran away. And they would have fought every bit as hard against us as against the Germans. Why? The regular soldier didn't know much about the Germans except that they'd invaded once already...and it would have been simplicity itself to point out to the Soviet soldier that the British and Americans had already invaded Russia before to prevent the success of communism.

    4. The B-29's wouldn't have been available until after the surrender of Japan...and after not only the B-29's were transferred, but also all their specialized support equipment. And let's not forget that they needed longer-than-normal runways to use, too. And on top of all that, you're assuming that by September - five months after the commencement of hostilities with the USSR (with their much greater forces and their much shorter supply lines) - that we'd still be holding France.

    AND let's not forget that the world was war-weary. It is unlikely in the extreme that the American and British public would have supported a continuation of the war against the USSR...because that's one of the big differences between totalitarianism and democracy. A democracy is more productive per person than a totalitarian state...but a totalitarian state doesn't have to bow to public pressure. Or did you learn nothing from Vietnam?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  7. #177
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What you obviously don't understand about combat tactics, is that a brilliant tactician will form his tactics to suit all those factors.

    And, we didn't lose Vietnam. Any student of military history knows that.
    "We didn't lose Vietnam"? Gee...that's funny - last I checked, the Viet Cong won the war. Guy, we left because the American public no longer supported the war - that's life in a democracy. But regardless of the reason we left, we STILL left. We sure as heck didn't win.

    And the best tacticians in history can only do so much if the logistics, strategy, and morale are against them - AGAIN, guy, if tactics were the be-all and end-all of battle, the Germans would have defeated the USSR handily. But they didn't.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  8. #178
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    IOW, you know you're wrong, so you're going to change the subject.
    um, no, I'm not wrong. You're going only on what you've heard all these years...and because you didn't hear about the successes of the Soviet intel system, you're assuming that they can't have been nearly as good as our own.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  9. #179
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    "We didn't lose Vietnam"? Gee...that's funny - last I checked, the Viet Cong won the war. Guy, we left because the American public no longer supported the war - that's life in a democracy. But regardless of the reason we left, we STILL left. We sure as heck didn't win.

    And the best tacticians in history can only do so much if the logistics, strategy, and morale are against them - AGAIN, guy, if tactics were the be-all and end-all of battle, the Germans would have defeated the USSR handily. But they didn't.
    Last I checked, the Viet Cong was destroyed in 1968, in the Tet Offensive.

    Guy, we left because we forced the North Vietnamese Communists into signing an armistice agreement.

    You call yourself a student if history and you think the Viet Cong forced us out of Vietnam through force of arms? Are ALL the historical works you've read written by commies, or what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #180
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    um, no, I'm not wrong. You're going only on what you've heard all these years...and because you didn't hear about the successes of the Soviet intel system, you're assuming that they can't have been nearly as good as our own.
    It's a fact that Britain fed intel from Project Ultra to the Soviets that gave them the upper hand in the Kursk Salient.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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