View Poll Results: The Greatest General in History

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  • Napoleon Bonaparta

    6 13.95%
  • Genghis Khan

    11 25.58%
  • Julius Caesar

    5 11.63%
  • Salah ad-Din, Yusuf ibn Ayyub

    1 2.33%
  • Georgy Zhukov

    0 0%
  • Alexander the Great

    11 25.58%
  • Sir Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington

    2 4.65%
  • Charles Martel

    0 0%
  • Sun Tzu

    6 13.95%
  • Akbar the Great

    1 2.33%
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Thread: The Greatest General in History

  1. #141
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    And yet, with numerical inferiority and inferiority of equipment, Pattons 3rd army killed, wounded or captured more than 6 times it's numbers. The Soviets, with numerical superiority and possible parity in equipment, tanks, still lost a greater number than they killed, wounded or captured. At such a loss rate, the soviets would of needed 2.4 million, just to handle 3rd army alone, and that is if they suffered only the casualty rate the Germans did, which the Soviets actually lost more. So Qualitative performance puts Patton alone far ahead of what the Soviets had.

    Lets see, you also claim the P-51, which was superior and out-performed all German Aircraft except the ME-262 would be out matched by the IL-2 which could not take on the 109s, which the P-51s ate up? Gotcha.
    1. The Soviets faced FAR greater numbers of German forces - and the more experienced German soldiers - than the American army did. What we faced wasn't even a quarter of what the Soviets faced. You should think about that.

    2. I did NOT say that the IL-2 would outmatch the P-51 - in fact, I said quite the opposite. Go back and read what I wrote.

    3. Do something really different and LEARN how titanic the struggle was on the Eastern Front. What we did on the Western Front wasn't much more than a sideshow compared to what happened there.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  2. #142
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Most of their lines of communication were out of range of our air power. And one of the worst mistakes one can make in warfare is to underestimate the enemy - Zhukov was a very, very good general...and after the logistic advantage is taken into consideration, it would have been a very difficult matter for Patton to overcome Zhukov...especially considering that the Soviets had the superior armor.

    Don't get me wrong - Patton was a childhood hero of mine. I thought he could take on just about anyone and win...but now that time has passed and I've learned more about the Eastern Front in WWII (I've been a student of military history and especially WWII since I was a child), well, Zhukov would have soundly beaten Patton.
    Zuhkov was successful because of Lend-Lease, British intel feeding and force of numbers. Patton would have had to make major mistakes for Zhukov to gain the upper-hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #143
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Japanese made the same mistake that Hitler did: rigid defense.
    Actually, the German generals did not want a rigid defense, but Hitler overrode them.

    But the rigid defense doctrine may well have saved the USSR. The Red Army was faltering, falling back in disarray, and quite a few military historians think that Stalin's rigid defense order - "Not one step back" - slowed the advance of the Wehrmacht just enough to keep it from becoming a rout on a grand scale...and just enough to allow the Soviets to move their factories back to the Urals.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  4. #144
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    1. The Soviets faced FAR greater numbers of German forces - and the more experienced German soldiers - than the American army did. What we faced wasn't even a quarter of what the Soviets faced. You should think about that.

    2. I did NOT say that the IL-2 would outmatch the P-51 - in fact, I said quite the opposite. Go back and read what I wrote.

    3. Do something really different and LEARN how titanic the struggle was on the Eastern Front. What we did on the Western Front wasn't much more than a sideshow compared to what happened there.
    American units from the PTO would have been deployed against the Soviets. These are troops that were far more hardened to the horrors of war than the ETO soldiers. They were accustomed to fighting an enemy that literally fought to the death; the Soviets, in general never fought to the death.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #145
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    American units from the PTO would have been deployed against the Soviets. These are troops that were far more hardened to the horrors of war than the ETO soldiers. They were accustomed to fighting an enemy that literally fought to the death; the Soviets, in general never fought to the death.
    Yeah but how long would it of taken them to redeploy all those forces to defend Europe. By the time they did, UK would be the last free country in Europe. They'd be better off invading Vladivostok, opening a second front and attacking the industry that had been moved away from the eastern front.

  6. #146
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Actually, the German generals did not want a rigid defense, but Hitler overrode them.
    Yeah...I've already mentioned that.

    But the rigid defense doctrine may well have saved the USSR. The Red Army was faltering, falling back in disarray, and quite a few military historians think that Stalin's rigid defense order - "Not one step back" - slowed the advance of the Wehrmacht just enough to keep it from becoming a rout on a grand scale...and just enough to allow the Soviets to move their factories back to the Urals.
    The Soviets had the manpower resources to do that. The Germans and the Japanese didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #147
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Zuhkov was successful because of Lend-Lease, British intel feeding and force of numbers. Patton would have had to make major mistakes for Zhukov to gain the upper-hand.
    Hardly.

    Lend-Lease did help - there's no debate about that. But the Soviet intel was far greater than what the Brits had - check into what led to the Soviet victory at the Battle of Kursk sometime.

    And it's a great mistake to underestimate the Soviet generals. We in the West grew up watching and admiring Patton and the other American generals (just like I did), and even the German generals, but during the Cold War it would have been politically incorrect for our media and historians to give proper credit to the Soviet generals. As a result, most Americans have no clue about how much greater the struggle was on the Eastern Front as compared to the Western Front.

    What most of us don't realize is that the Soviets would likely have won even if we had never invaded Normandy. If we hadn't opened up another front, the Soviets probably wouldn't have stopped until they reached the Pyrenees...which means that the entire European continent other than Britain would probably have been communist. THAT was the real benefit of Operation Overlord.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  8. #148
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    First of all, you started off commenting and arguing about something that no one had even said.

    Second, you obviously have a dislike for Patton for some reason. Being that he was one of the wealthiest Generals in US History and you claim to be a socialist, that could be the reason. You give Montgomery credit for Victory in North Africa but he was actually the third British General and didn't take over until around the same time as Patton when Galt was killed and both were following the strategic plan of Eisenhower.

    You also seem to totally disregard that Patton accomplished at least two feats of military prowess that no other military leader has ever done. First he took over a defeated and demoralized army and in 10 days, marched them back into battle and defeated the same enemy. Second, he disengaged part of his army, turned it 90 degrees, marched it further and faster than any army had ever done in history, in the middle of winter no less, and without rest, engaged a superior force and defeated it. No one, not Sun Tzu, not Alexander the Great, and certainly not some dumbass cretin who is retarded enough to be a socialist.
    Okay, I've got to help you out on this. I can't speak for the other guy, but I was a great admirer of Patton for many years...until I learned more about what happened on the Eastern Front.

    Patton was a great tactician - but there's a lot more to being a great general than tactics, which is why Eisenhower was a better general.

    Yeah, he did really well in his relief of Bastogne...but there are many generals throughout history that did better with less. Genghis Khan's general Subodai faced greater odds and won greater battles over greater distances than Patton ever dreamed.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  9. #149
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Hardly.

    Lend-Lease did help - there's no debate about that. But the Soviet intel was far greater than what the Brits had - check into what led to the Soviet victory at the Battle of Kursk sometime.

    And it's a great mistake to underestimate the Soviet generals. We in the West grew up watching and admiring Patton and the other American generals (just like I did), and even the German generals, but during the Cold War it would have been politically incorrect for our media and historians to give proper credit to the Soviet generals. As a result, most Americans have no clue about how much greater the struggle was on the Eastern Front as compared to the Western Front.

    What most of us don't realize is that the Soviets would likely have won even if we had never invaded Normandy. If we hadn't opened up another front, the Soviets probably wouldn't have stopped until they reached the Pyrenees...which means that the entire European continent other than Britain would probably have been communist. THAT was the real benefit of Operation Overlord.
    The Brits had cracked the Enigma Code and that info was being spoon-fed to the Soviets. The only real Soviet intel source was an operator in Switzerland--The Red Trio, ran by Sandor Rudo--that did nothing more than confirm the info the Soviets recieved from Bletchly Park.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #150
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    Re: The Greatest General in History

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Okay, I've got to help you out on this. I can't speak for the other guy, but I was a great admirer of Patton for many years...until I learned more about what happened on the Eastern Front.

    Patton was a great tactician - but there's a lot more to being a great general than tactics, which is why Eisenhower was a better general.

    Yeah, he did really well in his relief of Bastogne...but there are many generals throughout history that did better with less. Genghis Khan's general Subodai faced greater odds and won greater battles over greater distances than Patton ever dreamed.
    Battlefield tactics are what win the day. You'll never prove otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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