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The Greatest General in History

The Greatest General in History

  • Napoleon Bonaparta

    Votes: 5 14.3%
  • Genghis Khan

    Votes: 10 28.6%
  • Julius Caesar

    Votes: 4 11.4%
  • Salah ad-Din, Yusuf ibn Ayyub

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • Georgy Zhukov

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Alexander the Great

    Votes: 10 28.6%
  • Sir Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington

    Votes: 2 5.7%
  • Charles Martel

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sun Tzu

    Votes: 3 8.6%
  • Akbar the Great

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    35
great thread. a lot of those men held great ability's to command. If i had to chose i would say Napoleon or Wellington. Napoleon was an incredible commander, creating a system of war that would be used for century's there after. And wellington did what many considered impossible at the time, he took the system, improved upon it, and then beat it.

Of course in all reality Napoleon was a great dictator to. He set up the Napoleonic code that is basically the first 5 or 6 amendments of our Constitution, fed the poor, gave some land back to the church. Of course his blunder in Russia was just plain stupid but wht ya going to do
 
Alexander the Great. Conquering the entire known world and a significant part that wasn't known, or at least as much of it as was worth having, has got to count for something. He created on of the largest empires ever seen. All before the age of 30.

Plus, he was never defeated. His victories were usually against superior numbers, won using innovative and superior tactics. He fought along side his troops and enjoyed fierce loyalty from them as a result. He showed tremendous flexibilty, adapting to the tactics of unfamiliar opponents with ease.

He was said to have delusions of grandure as a young man, but if one says he will conquer the world and then does it is he really delusional?
 
Alexander the Great. Conquering the entire known world and a significant part that wasn't known, or at least as much of it as was worth having, has got to count for something. He created on of the largest empires ever seen. All before the age of 30.

Plus, he was never defeated. His victories were usually against superior numbers, won using innovative and superior tactics. He fought along side his troops and enjoyed fierce loyalty from them as a result. He showed tremendous flexibilty, adapting to the tactics of unfamiliar opponents with ease.

He was said to have delusions of grandure as a young man, but if one says he will conquer the world and then does it is he really delusional?

Some would argue that Alexander the Great had a ego problem, I mean he created multiple cities all after himself, Alexandria.

As for being undefeated I would argue that is technically true. Yes he was never beaten in battle, but he was beaten by his own soldiers, who protested and refused to go any further into India.
 
Right! Ignoring the fact that the Soviets recieved intel generated at Bletchly Park and insisting that all their intel came from organic sources, is trying to paint the picture that the Soviets won the war single handedly.

The very specific information that allowed the Soviets to literally know every move the Germans were going to make came Project Ultra, not Lucy. Lucy only confirmed the credibility of the Ultra intel.

You keep insisting that no such intel passed from the Brits and the Soviets and that's completely un-true.

You obviously did not read the references I quoted, which clearly showed that the intel FIRST came from the Lucy spy ring, which intel the USSR verified through Bletchly Park.

But I get it - in your eyes, the Soviets could do nothing right ever no matter what.
 
You obviously did not read the references I quoted, which clearly showed that the intel FIRST came from the Lucy spy ring, which intel the USSR verified through Bletchly Park.

But I get it - in your eyes, the Soviets could do nothing right ever no matter what.

It's bizarre, how ardent some American supporters of the Hollywood version of events can be. The Eastern Front was 80% of the entire Second World War, and the USSR was absolutely and completely the most important Ally of the coalition. The statistics alone prove that nothing else could be the case. Add to this the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, wiping the Japanese out of China, and there's truly no way to conclude that the USSR was anything but the most important member of the coalition by a mile.

But, for some reason, that is unstomachable to people who think that the world is black and white, and their politics dictate that someone who carries the name communist must be an awful, evil, idiotic, baby-killing monster.

I think it's a sad way to go through history and life, unable to appreciate other viewpoints and twisting objective facts.
 
You obviously did not read the references I quoted, which clearly showed that the intel FIRST came from the Lucy spy ring, which intel the USSR verified through Bletchly Park.

But I get it - in your eyes, the Soviets could do nothing right ever no matter what.

Yeah, I read all that mis-information.

For the last time: the specific plan--Zitadel--that showed what units, how many units, avenues of approach, objectives, everything, vame form Ultra's monitoring of Enigma messages.

This is information that Lucy couldn't get his hands on; "Lucy" was the code name of the agent, not the spy program. The program was known as "The Red Trio Network" ran by Sandor Rado. Rudolf Rösler was, "Lucy".

When did I say they did anything wrong?
 
It's bizarre, how ardent some American supporters of the Hollywood version of events can be. The Eastern Front was 80% of the entire Second World War, and the USSR was absolutely and completely the most important Ally of the coalition. The statistics alone prove that nothing else could be the case. Add to this the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, wiping the Japanese out of China, and there's truly no way to conclude that the USSR was anything but the most important member of the coalition by a mile.

But, for some reason, that is unstomachable to people who think that the world is black and white, and their politics dictate that someone who carries the name communist must be an awful, evil, idiotic, baby-killing monster.

I think it's a sad way to go through history and life, unable to appreciate other viewpoints and twisting objective facts.

Of course Russia was an important allie; couldn't have won the war without them. By the same token, the war would have been lost without Britain, or The United States.

Why did the Soviets maintain diplomatic relations with the Japanese? Care to explain that one?

The Japanese were alteady defeated by the time the Soviets got involved in the east.
 
Of course Russia was an important allie; couldn't have won the war without them. By the same token, the war would have been lost without Britain, or The United States.

Why did the Soviets maintain diplomatic relations with the Japanese? Care to explain that one?

The Japanese were alteady defeated by the time the Soviets got involved in the east.

I think it is absolutely true that there was by 1945 no hope for Japan winning the war -- and indeed, I think most of the credit for Japan's defeat must go to the United States and the British Empire.

I will say that it's also true that Japan's surrender was prompted, at least in part, by Japanese fears of a Soviet invasion as much as American nuclear bombs. A Soviet 'North Japan' would have been a truly terrifying thing -- another Cold War front centred around Tokyo, for example! Japanese fears of Communism and the huge Soviet army massing in Manchuria that had just wiped out 80% of Japanese land forces was a large factor in the Japanese surrender -- though that is a different thing than the question of who caused the ultimate defeat of Japan.
 
I think it is absolutely true that there was by 1945 no hope for Japan winning the war -- and indeed, I think most of the credit for Japan's defeat must go to the United States and the British Empire.

I will say that it's also true that Japan's surrender was prompted, at least in part, by Japanese fears of a Soviet invasion as much as American nuclear bombs. A Soviet 'North Japan' would have been a truly terrifying thing -- another Cold War front centred around Tokyo, for example! Japanese fears of Communism and the huge Soviet army massing in Manchuria that had just wiped out 80% of Japanese land forces was a large factor in the Japanese surrender -- though that is a different thing than the question of who caused the ultimate defeat of Japan.

The Japanese surrender didn't have anything to with a fear of Soviet invasion...lol!
 
The Japanese surrender didn't have anything to with a fear of Soviet invasion...lol!

Yes, it really did.

"The rapid defeat of Japan's Kwantung Army has been argued to be a significant factor in the Japanese surrender and the end of World War II, as Japan realized the Soviets were willing and able to take the cost of invasion of its Home Islands, after their rapid conquest of Manchuria and southern Sakhalin."

Soviet invasion of Manchuria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are nine sources for that statement alone. The Japanese, just like the Germans, feared capture by the Soviets way more than capture by the Western allies, so they tried to surrender before having to fight the Soviets.
 
Yes, it really did.

"The rapid defeat of Japan's Kwantung Army has been argued to be a significant factor in the Japanese surrender and the end of World War II, as Japan realized the Soviets were willing and able to take the cost of invasion of its Home Islands, after their rapid conquest of Manchuria and southern Sakhalin."

Soviet invasion of Manchuria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are nine sources for that statement alone. The Japanese, just like the Germans, feared capture by the Soviets way more than capture by the Western allies, so they tried to surrender before having to fight the Soviets.

The inflating of Soviet importance knows no bounds.
 
Yeah, I read all that mis-information.

For the last time: the specific plan--Zitadel--that showed what units, how many units, avenues of approach, objectives, everything, vame form Ultra's monitoring of Enigma messages.

This is information that Lucy couldn't get his hands on; "Lucy" was the code name of the agent, not the spy program. The program was known as "The Red Trio Network" ran by Sandor Rado. Rudolf Rösler was, "Lucy".

When did I say they did anything wrong?

Um, yes, you did. To wit:

Roessler's first major contribution to Soviet intelligence came in May 1941 when he was able to deliver details of Operation Barbarossa, Germany's impending invasion of the Soviet Union. Following the invasion, in June 1941, Lucy was regarded as a VYRDO source, i.e. of the highest importance, and to be transmitted immediately. Over the next two years "Lucy" was able to supply the Soviets with high grade military intelligence. During the autumn of 1942, "Lucy" provided the Soviets with detailed information about Case Blue, the German operations against Stalingrad and the Caucasus; during this period decisions taken in Berlin were arriving in Moscow on average within a ten-hour period; on one occasion in just six hours, not much longer than it took to reach German front line units. Roessler, and Rado's network, particularly Allan Foote, Rado's main radio operator, were prepared to work flat out to maintain the speed and flow of the information. At the peak of its operation, Rado's network was enciphering and sending several hundred messages per month, many of these from "Lucy". Meanwhile Roessler alone had to do all the receiving, decoding and evaluating of the "Lucy" messages before passing them on; for him during this period it became a full-time operation. In the summer of 1943, the culmination of "Lucy's" success came in transmitting the details of Germany's plans for Operation Zitadelle, a planned summer offensive against the Kursk salient, which became a strategic defeat for the German army—the Battle of Kursk gave the Red Army the initiative on the eastern front for the remainder of the war.
 
Yes, it really did.

"The rapid defeat of Japan's Kwantung Army has been argued to be a significant factor in the Japanese surrender and the end of World War II, as Japan realized the Soviets were willing and able to take the cost of invasion of its Home Islands, after their rapid conquest of Manchuria and southern Sakhalin."

Soviet invasion of Manchuria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are nine sources for that statement alone. The Japanese, just like the Germans, feared capture by the Soviets way more than capture by the Western allies, so they tried to surrender before having to fight the Soviets.

The Japanese surrender didn't have anything to do with Soviet invasion it was unlikely that the Soviet Union would be capable of gathering the naval resources for mounting a cross-strait invasion of the heavily defended home islands. What the invasion of Manchuria did however was obliterate the Japanese strategic map. Prior to the invasion Japan despite mounting losses held an apparently strong position in China. They had retreated to the coasts and tightened their lines of defense but they still dominated everything from Guangzhou to Beijing, they retained control of a strong puppet in Manchukuo, and their old dominion over Korea was unchallenged. This continental Empire gave Japan hope that it could drag out the war to such an extent that it might force favorable peace terms on the Allies, moreover it gave psychological confidence. The loss of islands and fleets was one thing, but the Empire was still relatively 'intact'. After the invasion it was clear that Japanese field armies and garrisons in China were unequivocally doomed and that nothing but the Home Islands could be defended.

That being said there is overwhelming evidence that the atomic bombings figured more prominently in forcing the immediate Japanese capitulation. It is incredibly unlikely that a swift unconditional Japanese surrender would have been forthcoming in mid August just because of the loss of Manchukuo-Manchuria and Korea. Devastating yes but it did not directly imperil the Home Islands nor did it deflect from the possibility of a terrible resistance that might minimize the peace conditions. With the atomic bombings it completed the strategic picture of total and utter defeat.
 
It's bizarre, how ardent some American supporters of the Hollywood version of events can be. The Eastern Front was 80% of the entire Second World War, and the USSR was absolutely and completely the most important Ally of the coalition. The statistics alone prove that nothing else could be the case. Add to this the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, wiping the Japanese out of China, and there's truly no way to conclude that the USSR was anything but the most important member of the coalition by a mile.

But, for some reason, that is unstomachable to people who think that the world is black and white, and their politics dictate that someone who carries the name communist must be an awful, evil, idiotic, baby-killing monster.

I think it's a sad way to go through history and life, unable to appreciate other viewpoints and twisting objective facts.

It's also bizarre how Eurocentric some people can be. Everyone seems to forget the struggle of China against the Japanese Empire that lasted for longer than any other belligerent and likely prevented any Japanese ambition in the direction of the Soviet Union. Much moreso than Khalkin Gol or any other border engagement ever could have. The sacrifice China and its people made was monstrous and critical.

Sorry just my peeve.
 
Um, yes, you did. To wit:

Roessler's first major contribution to Soviet intelligence came in May 1941 when he was able to deliver details of Operation Barbarossa, Germany's impending invasion of the Soviet Union. Following the invasion, in June 1941, Lucy was regarded as a VYRDO source, i.e. of the highest importance, and to be transmitted immediately. Over the next two years "Lucy" was able to supply the Soviets with high grade military intelligence. During the autumn of 1942, "Lucy" provided the Soviets with detailed information about Case Blue, the German operations against Stalingrad and the Caucasus; during this period decisions taken in Berlin were arriving in Moscow on average within a ten-hour period; on one occasion in just six hours, not much longer than it took to reach German front line units. Roessler, and Rado's network, particularly Allan Foote, Rado's main radio operator, were prepared to work flat out to maintain the speed and flow of the information. At the peak of its operation, Rado's network was enciphering and sending several hundred messages per month, many of these from "Lucy". Meanwhile Roessler alone had to do all the receiving, decoding and evaluating of the "Lucy" messages before passing them on; for him during this period it became a full-time operation. In the summer of 1943, the culmination of "Lucy's" success came in transmitting the details of Germany's plans for Operation Zitadelle, a planned summer offensive against the Kursk salient, which became a strategic defeat for the German army—the Battle of Kursk gave the Red Army the initiative on the eastern front for the remainder of the war.

Um, no, I didn't!

Expand your horizons. Wiki is good for general info, but you shouldn't base your historical knowledge strictly upon that.
 
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