View Poll Results: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

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  • Release them.

    5 9.09%
  • Move them to US facilities and try them.

    17 30.91%
  • Continue to detain then indefinitely.

    8 14.55%
  • Something else.

    25 45.45%
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Thread: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

  1. #281
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    I think success was defined by the Bush administration as oil prices going up and Haliburtan's stock soaring.
    Then you are attempting to be cute, but stupid. The Bush Administration never defined success in Iraq by either of those standards.

    My idea of success would have been an independent country that governs itself without civil war.
    Mine to, would include that. And we were headed there, before we got yanked down and out. We will see the same thing happen in Afghanistan if the President does indeed decide (as he has promised to do) to withdraw according to a political schedule that is beneficial in Washington, rather than an on-the-ground standard, that is beneficial in Afghanistan.

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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Then you are attempting to be cute, but stupid. The Bush Administration never defined success in Iraq by either of those standards.
    Don't be so sure. I actually think I am right...remember, I'm not as invested as you.



    Mine to, would include that. And we were headed there, before we got yanked down and out. We will see the same thing happen in Afghanistan if the President does indeed decide (as he has promised to do) to withdraw according to a political schedule that is beneficial in Washington, rather than an on-the-ground standard, that is beneficial in Afghanistan.
    We had that when they greeted us as liberators in 2003. But, Bush and company screwed that up...perhaps not on accident.

  3. #283
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm not trying to compare right now - we will get to a discussion of the particulars as soon as you are capable of making a decision. I am asking you to explain YOUR claim that illegal or immoral means are never justified by the ends.

    Did you mean:

    A. Either Illegality or Immorality of the means is enough to disqualify a means from being justified, regardless of the ends

    B. Immorality alone disqualifies a means from being justified, regardless of the ends

    C. Only if a Means is both Immoral and Illegal is it disqualified from being justified, regardless of the ends

    or

    D. You mis-spoke, and would in reality only argue that certain ends do not justify certain means.





    It seems like you are choosing D with your differentiation between torture and civil disobedience - is that your answer?
    I do wish you would debate honestly.

    Immorally alone disqualifies it. Illegal is a secondary component, but important. I've explained clearly the category both I and the phrase speak to. You're smart enough to follow so don't play otherwise.

    And I didn't misspeaks. Nor did the person who made the original quote. You pretended that there wasn't a common understanding of the quote. It's a dishonest tactic. You try to hide from it and the real discussion by playing these sophist games. While mildly entertaining, they don't advance the argument.

    So stop pretending and deal with the actual argument.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #284
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Don't be so sure. I actually think I am right...remember, I'm not as invested as you.
    I'm not particularly invested in the Bush administration - my critiques of Rumsfeld thus far on this thread have been better informed than your own, if anything. And you are actually incorrect - the Bush Administration never measured success in Iraq by an increase in oil prices or an increase in stock prices.

    We had that when they greeted us as liberators in 2003. But, Bush and company screwed that up...perhaps not on accident.
    Sure. Because if there is one thing every President wants as part of his legacy, it's a massive loss of political support due to ineffectively waging what becomes a deeply unpopular war effectively ruining his second administration and losing his party both houses of congress.

    Hey, you know what else? Obama wants unemployment to stay high because it keeps people dependent, and Clinton let Osama go back in the 90s because he knew that the 9/11 attack would occur on the next administrations' watch, and was betting it would be a Republican one.

    I mean, as long as we are spitballing idiotic conspiracy theories with no basis in reality.... but there is a forum for that.

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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I do wish you would debate honestly.
    I wish you would debate at all rather than try to obfuscate, spin, and weasel your way out of the meaning of your words. Trying to get you to say or defend anything is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

    Immorally alone disqualifies it. Illegal is a secondary component, but important. I've explained clearly the category both I and the phrase speak to. You're smart enough to follow so don't play otherwise.
    Okay. So all you had to say was that. Why couldn't you have done that pages ago, when I first asked?

    So how do you deal with the fact that whether or not a means is immoral is often determined by the end under pursuit?

  6. #286
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I wish you would debate at all rather than try to obfuscate, spin, and weasel your way out of the meaning of your words. Trying to get you to say or defend anything is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

    Okay. So all you had to say was that. Why couldn't you have done that pages ago, when I first asked?

    So how do you deal with the fact that whether or not a means is immoral is often determined by the end under pursuit?
    The claim of immorality always reminds me of 'An American Dream'.

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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    The claim of immorality always reminds me of 'An American Dream'.
    Well in this context it usually reminds me of Theodore Roosevelt.

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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm not particularly invested in the Bush administration - my critiques of Rumsfeld thus far on this thread have been better informed than your own, if anything. And you are actually incorrect - the Bush Administration never measured success in Iraq by an increase in oil prices or an increase in stock prices.
    I was referring to your service. It's hard for you to face that your friends died to stuff the pockets of George's friends and political benefactors.


    Sure. Because if there is one thing every President wants as part of his legacy, it's a massive loss of political support due to ineffectively waging what becomes a deeply unpopular war effectively ruining his second administration and losing his party both houses of congress.

    Hey, you know what else? Obama wants unemployment to stay high because it keeps people dependent, and Clinton let Osama go back in the 90s because he knew that the 9/11 attack would occur on the next administrations' watch, and was betting it would be a Republican one.

    I mean, as long as we are spitballing idiotic conspiracy theories with no basis in reality.... but there is a forum for that.
    That protracted occupation was very profitable. So, in many ways, a quick war would not have been considered a success. It is what it is. Follow the money.

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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well in this context it usually reminds me of Theodore Roosevelt.
    The moralist?

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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    I was referring to your service. It's hard for you to face that your friends died to stuff the pockets of George's friends and political benefactors.
    They didn't. Though it is typical of someone who has no personal experience with the service that they might think so.

    However, if you can demonstrate any Administration use of the metric of per barrel or per stock pricing as an indicator of the success of the effort in Iraq, I would urge you not just to share it here, but to get it as quickly as possible to the New York Times, the Washington Post, and every other major media source you can. Apparently you have figured out a new angle that no one has clued into before.

    That. Or you are making it up and have no sourcing whatsoever to support your ridiculous claim.

    That protracted occupation was very profitable
    Not for the Bush Administration it wasn't. Not only was it disastrous, they very clearly did not expect it and did not plan very well for it at all.

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