View Poll Results: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

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  • Release them.

    5 9.09%
  • Move them to US facilities and try them.

    17 30.91%
  • Continue to detain then indefinitely.

    8 14.55%
  • Something else.

    25 45.45%
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Thread: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

  1. #271
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And I should you how they were differ, which should have informed you pick an example more in keeping. You need an example like torture. One that the immoral try to justify
    Wait - so are you now arguing that the standard of Illegal and/or Immoral is not the standard for justification of means? But rather than illegal or immoral means may or may not be justified by ends?

    Alright, I'll add an option.


    Boo, you stated that Illegal and Immoral Means were Never Justified by the Ends. Later you waffled on the "illegal" standard.

    Did you mean:

    A. Either Illegality or Immorality of the means is enough to disqualify a means from being justified, regardless of the ends

    B. Immorality alone disqualifies a means from being justified, regardless of the ends

    C. Only if a Means is both Immoral and Illegal is it disqualified from being justified, regardless of the ends

    or

    D. You mis-spoke, and would in reality only argue that certain ends do not justify certain means, such as (you offer) torture for potentially life-saving intelligence.

  2. #272
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    At the rate we are going they will live out the rest of their natural lives doing the Guantanamo limbo and we will not have to do anything, they will just all die out over time :roll
    :



    I agree that right now that looks like the most likely outcome.

    And it might be why some of the detainees have gone on hunger strikes.

  3. #273
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    You dodged the question last time. So, I'll ask again. Do you consider the job Rummy did in Iraq a success? And is so, can you support that assertion with any links?
    What he was commissioned to do I think there are several things he should be accredited. I find it hard for folks with any credibility to deny his successes in Afghanistan by which the Taliban regime was efficiently dispatched. Afghan elections in which women comprised forty percent of the voters, is testament to Rumsfeld's success where other military powers have failed. Rumsfeld was victorious in the Iraqi campaign, toppling the Baathist party of Saddam Hussein which led to American soldiers capturing Hussein where he was tried for his crimes against the people under their new found government. I think it was these two main successes that led to the "get Rummy" campaign because they feared Iraq could be a success. And that would be political suicide for the left. I also think Rumsfeld was a victim of some bureaucratic power plays going on in the Bush administration . While in some of your posts you seem to be under the impression that Rumsfeld's head was up Bush's butt. That just isn't so. They didn't see eye to eye on a lot of things. It was Rumsfeld that put a monkey wrench into Bush extending a more transparent relationship with Putin. I'm sure glad Rumsfeld was there to slow that one down. Too bad there isn't someone like a Rumsfeld in the current administration. You claim the reconstruction failures are Rumsfeld's when the first year of reconstruction was under Bremer. Bremer wrote a book about his year in Iraq and claims he was neither Powell's man nor Rumsfeld's man but Bush's man. Before Rumsfeld was forced to resign by the Bush administration, he had already successfully laid the groundwork for keeping the bureaucratic peace among the different tribes. Bremer also wrote in his book that he didn't take the advice of Rumsfeld, maybe he should have.

  4. #274
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    I seem to recall we were already in the process of leaving Iraq due to a agreement negotiated by the previous administration. The Iraqis just asked us to leave sooner.
    just to be clear on the 2 SOFA's. Iraq would not give "immunity" to US troops; both al_Sadr and al_Malaki said that if we stayed we would be under Iraqi law.
    Not 100% sure on the timeline, but that was the deal breaker, so we left.
    Those who claim we "should have stayed" would surely be complaining about US residuals under Iraqi law.

    Afg.'s Loya Jirga has approved "immunity" ( US troops would not be under Afg. law),
    but Karzai refuses to sign the BSA (Bilateral Security Agreement), saying he won't until April 2014.

    He is trying to drag it out for more concessions - putting it off 'till after the Afg elections , even though Karzai will be out of office.
    (Term limited)

    Karzai is trying to cement some kind of legacy, or is just being his usual parasitic pain in the ass. Why he will not sign the BSA.

    Karzai’s Irresponsible Politics | The Diplomat
    Empathizing with Karzai isn’t hard to do; a frictionless path to the BSA might have made Karzai appear too eager to accept a continuing U.S. presence in Afghanistan, making him appear weak.
    Instead, Karzai stirs up a bit of a struggle for the United States, appearing to his countrymen as a strong leader, focused on protecting the dignity of the Afghan people.
    Indeed, Karzai demanded that the United States provide guarantees that its troops would not conduct operations in which they would enter Afghan homes under any circumstances as part of the conditions for the BSA.
    NATO is now in negotiations with Afg, on the SOFA agreeement/ contingent on the ultimate signing fo the BSA with the U.S.

    NATO Begins Negotiations With Afghanistan For Post-2014 Security Agreement | The Diplomat
    Against the backdrop of the stalled Bilateral Security Agreement (BSA) with the United States, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) began negotiations with the government of Afghanistan for a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) that would provide a legal basis for international troops’ continued presence in Afghanistan beyond next year.
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    What he was commissioned to do I think there are several things he should be accredited. I find it hard for folks with any credibility to deny his successes in Afghanistan by which the Taliban regime was efficiently dispatched. Afghan elections in which women comprised forty percent of the voters, is testament to Rumsfeld's success where other military powers have failed. Rumsfeld was victorious in the Iraqi campaign, toppling the Baathist party of Saddam Hussein which led to American soldiers capturing Hussein where he was tried for his crimes against the people under their new found government. I think it was these two main successes that led to the "get Rummy" campaign because they feared Iraq could be a success. And that would be political suicide for the left. I also think Rumsfeld was a victim of some bureaucratic power plays going on in the Bush administration . While in some of your posts you seem to be under the impression that Rumsfeld's head was up Bush's butt. That just isn't so. They didn't see eye to eye on a lot of things. It was Rumsfeld that put a monkey wrench into Bush extending a more transparent relationship with Putin. I'm sure glad Rumsfeld was there to slow that one down. Too bad there isn't someone like a Rumsfeld in the current administration. You claim the reconstruction failures are Rumsfeld's when the first year of reconstruction was under Bremer. Bremer wrote a book about his year in Iraq and claims he was neither Powell's man nor Rumsfeld's man but Bush's man. Before Rumsfeld was forced to resign by the Bush administration, he had already successfully laid the groundwork for keeping the bureaucratic peace among the different tribes. Bremer also wrote in his book that he didn't take the advice of Rumsfeld, maybe he should have.
    Fair enough. Bremer was probably the one player even more incompetent than Rummy.

  6. #276
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Wait - so are you now arguing that the standard of Illegal and/or Immoral is not the standard for justification of means? But rather than illegal or immoral means may or may not be justified by ends?

    Alright, I'll add an option.


    Boo, you stated that Illegal and Immoral Means were Never Justified by the Ends. Later you waffled on the "illegal" standard.

    Did you mean:

    A. Either Illegality or Immorality of the means is enough to disqualify a means from being justified, regardless of the ends

    B. Immorality alone disqualifies a means from being justified, regardless of the ends

    C. Only if a Means is both Immoral and Illegal is it disqualified from being justified, regardless of the ends

    or

    D. You mis-spoke, and would in reality only argue that certain ends do not justify certain means, such as (you offer) torture for potentially life-saving intelligence.
    No, this is simple:

    You can't say that something like torture, illegal and immoral, is justified based on the ends. You can't. MLK made a stand, morally correct, breaking a law, and not saying don't prosecute. They are not the same thing. Stop trying to make them comparable.

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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well, for example, where I was in Fallujah, AQI and associates were pretty much driven out, attacks dropped from about 200 a month to 1 every two months (and were poorly conducted and ineffective at that), the local populace completely lost their fear of the M&I campaign and began to stand up for themselves (I remember knowing that we had won when I read a report about local shop owners beating an AQI operative with broomsticks for trying to dig a hole for IED's near their shops), local government became responsive to the needs of the populace and began to effectively coordinate public resources towards those ends, and the infrastructure of modern life (schools, trash disposal, power) were back up and running. Parents could send their kids to school without fear of violence on the streets.

    I remember being out at night and we ran across a group of people out on the street outside a shop playing some game or another, talking, laughing. It was odd because there was still technically a curfew, but nobody enforced it because it wasn't needed anymore, but also because people used to be terrified to be out at night. The interpreter was going back and forth with a couple of the leading men of the group and turned back to us with an odd look and told us that it was all very odd - he hadn't seen it before: the people were hippy. "They're hippies, Mike?" (to help protect identities, interpreters were given American nicknames). "No, no no, they are hippy. You know (he cavorts around for a second, grinning). Hippy." "Happy, Mike?" "Yes, yes, Happy, happy happy, people are finally happy."

    I had a friend roll through Fallujah a year and a half or so after that - he said there was a Kentucky Fried Chicken right on top of an old Tier One IED Site where we used to get blown up all the time. (shakes head) Never woulda thunk it when we first got there.
    I think success was defined by the Bush administration as oil prices going up and Haliburtan's stock soaring. Obama's idea of it is out of sight out of mind.

    My idea of success would have been an independent country that governs itself without civil war.

  8. #278
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    I think success was defined by the Bush administration as oil prices going up and Haliburtan's stock soaring. Obama's idea of it is out of sight out of mind.
    My idea of success would have been an independent country that governs itself without civil war.
    it's changed.

    The U.S. has sent Hellfire air-to-ground missiles to Iraq's air forces, which is using them in an ongoing campaign against the country's branch of al-Qaida, officials in Washington and Baghdad said Thursday

    The United States is committed to supporting Iraq in its fight against terrorism through the Strategic Framework Agreement," she said, referring to a 2008 pact between the two nations.
    "The recent delivery of Hellfire missiles and an upcoming delivery of ScanEagles are standard foreign military sales cases that we have with Iraq to strengthen their capabilities to combat this threat
    U.S. sends Hellfire missiles to Iraq

    When President Obama and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Al-Maliki meet on November 1, one of the main topics of conversation will be the Strategic Framework Agreement. This agreement, which was signed in 2008, outlines the terms for political, economic, cultural, and security cooperation between the United States and Iraq.
    This document was meant to serve as the basis for a lasting relationship between Iraq and the United States in which the U.S. would work to promote peace, stability, and democracy in Iraq.
    While some progress has been made over the past couple of years, much of the self-reported US activity in Iraq has been vague and uneven and the United States has failed to tackle the main obstacles which Iraq is facing today.
    The Strategic Framework Agreement and the Future of Iraq | EPIC

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  9. #279
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Fair enough. Just hate people that reiterate that which they hear on Fox (or whatever)..... I have heard this allegation as I have heard many allegations that it is taken out of context. I do know how often the Bible is taken out of context, so my default opinion is that the notion that Muslins want all non-Muslims converted or killed, I believe is misunderstood. I confess, however, that I do not know, as I have not read the Quran myself (though I have read parts).

    Your retort, however, is you have an extensive library. You did not say you actually read the Quran. I also have the Quran (translated) in my library, as I do the Book of Mormon, the Torah, the Wisdom of Laotse, a two shelves of nothing by philosophy books and a multitude of Bibles of various translations. Just because I have all of those books in my library, I can't say I could speak authoritatively or even knowledgeably about any except maybe the Bible and the Torah (which, of course is a subset of the Bible).
    With Arab sources always a little problem. Translation is not the original. Muslims have one truth for themselves and others, for all the others. It also allowed their tradition.
    I never claimed, that I am an expert in the Quran. Read in younger years, when all this was interesting for me.

  10. #280
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, this is simple:

    You can't say that something like torture, illegal and immoral, is justified based on the ends. You can't. MLK made a stand, morally correct, breaking a law, and not saying don't prosecute. They are not the same thing. Stop trying to make them comparable.
    I'm not trying to compare right now - we will get to a discussion of the particulars as soon as you are capable of making a decision. I am asking you to explain YOUR claim that illegal or immoral means are never justified by the ends.

    Did you mean:

    A. Either Illegality or Immorality of the means is enough to disqualify a means from being justified, regardless of the ends

    B. Immorality alone disqualifies a means from being justified, regardless of the ends

    C. Only if a Means is both Immoral and Illegal is it disqualified from being justified, regardless of the ends

    or

    D. You mis-spoke, and would in reality only argue that certain ends do not justify certain means.





    It seems like you are choosing D with your differentiation between torture and civil disobedience - is that your answer?

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