View Poll Results: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

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  • Release them.

    5 9.09%
  • Move them to US facilities and try them.

    17 30.91%
  • Continue to detain then indefinitely.

    8 14.55%
  • Something else.

    25 45.45%
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Thread: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

  1. #251
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Since these people are not within the USA's borders i don't believe that the U.S. constitution applies to them.

    But we should still either try and convict them or turn them loose.
    The United States owns/leases the land that they are held on, therefore they are on American land.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals."
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  2. #252
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by loader View Post
    I have a fairly large library. There's a Bible, the Gospel, the Koran, the Book of Changes, the Mahabharata.
    However, the translation. I do not speak Arabic.
    Fair enough. Just hate people that reiterate that which they hear on Fox (or whatever)..... I have heard this allegation as I have heard many allegations that it is taken out of context. I do know how often the Bible is taken out of context, so my default opinion is that the notion that Muslins want all non-Muslims converted or killed, I believe is misunderstood. I confess, however, that I do not know, as I have not read the Quran myself (though I have read parts).

    Your retort, however, is you have an extensive library. You did not say you actually read the Quran. I also have the Quran (translated) in my library, as I do the Book of Mormon, the Torah, the Wisdom of Laotse, a two shelves of nothing by philosophy books and a multitude of Bibles of various translations. Just because I have all of those books in my library, I can't say I could speak authoritatively or even knowledgeably about any except maybe the Bible and the Torah (which, of course is a subset of the Bible).
    Last edited by upsideguy; 12-28-13 at 03:28 PM.

  3. #253
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Perfectly relevant. Keep in context.
    On the contrary - you are refusing to answer the point: is Civil Disobedience, such as that used by Martin Luther King, unjustified because it is illegal, or does the fact that something is illegal not disqualify it from being justifiable?

    When you do something illegal and / or immoral, you can't say it was proper because of the ends. When you do something illegal, go to jail, you are not claiming it legal and proper, even if it fits the moral standard. That's why you willingly go to jail. When you do something illegal and or immoral and say you can because if the ends, that is when when use the common phrase "the ends don't justify the means."

    Now I know you're just playing a game here, to avoid a proper judgement in the issue at hand, but try to stay within the framework of the discussion.
    Referencing context or framework which you are unwilling to describe is simply a spin move, Boo. You didn't answer the question.

    You stated that Illegal and Immoral Means are Not Justified by the Ends.

    Did you mean to say that means are unjustified when they are:

    A: Immoral
    B: Illegal
    C: Both Immoral and Illegal

    ?

    I predict you will be unwilling to answer this question because no matter what you choose, it leaves you with problems.

  4. #254
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well you were free to your opinion, and I for one and glad that you turned out to be incorrect. 2007/2008 were wildly successful years for OIF.

    I think you are conflating "domestic political support" for "winning a war".
    Wildly successful? Have you seen Iraq lately? So, basically, what you're saying is we should still be there with our "wildly successful" surge.

  5. #255
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    That was when McCain was running for president and needed someone to throw under the bus in regard to what had become an unpopular war.
    McCain has a reputation of throwing a lot of people in his own party under the bus. Sometimes it's hard to tell if he is a Progressive or a Republican. Or maybe both!
    You dodged the question last time. So, I'll ask again. Do you consider the job Rummy did in Iraq a success? And is so, can you support that assertion with any links?

  6. #256
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Wildly successful? Have you seen Iraq lately?
    After our naif child-president-administration failed to negotiate a simple SOFA treaty and we had to pull out, thereby putting in danger (if not choosing to lose) all our hard-won gains?

    Yeah, I'm fairly aware of what's going on in Iraq lately. Which changes the history of the Surge not a whit.

    So, basically, what you're saying is we should still be there with our "wildly successful" surge.
    Meh, sort of. The drawdown should have been contingent upon realities on the ground in Iraq rather than political preferences in Washington. A similar story is being played out now in Afghanistan, where the President ordered our military to go in and take casualties to clear the areas that with his next breath he announced he intends to abandon - effectively choosing the worst of both worlds.

  7. #257
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Rumsfelds' "Light Footprint" strategy (what today we call "Drones and Special Forces", and is suddenly popular with many on both sides who want to limit our presence overseas) was indeed incredibly ill-suited to counterinsurgency in the context of a collapsed nation-state. His refusal to accept discordant analysis on items such as necessary force allocations from senior military leadership, including JCS Shinseki is rightfully a classic case of low-complexity, confirmation-seeking decision-making. However it wasn't his decision to send home the Iraqi Army - that was a casualty of the lack of unity of command and division between Bremer and Franks. Nor was it the Bush Administrations' fault that we lacked armored vehicles and the kinds of body armor we ended up wearing - those were produced by the Clinton Administrations' reductions in R&D and Procurement in the 90s. Rumsfeld was derided for the "you go to war with the army you have" comment, but he was also correct; just as he was with the "Known Unknowns" schtick.

    Just saying, the man deserves credit for what he got right, and blame for what he got wrong, rather than to have anything that happened that was bad or good thrown randomly on him.
    He did a good job storming through Iraq and killing the Husseins. He sucked at keeping the peace and rebuilding Iraq. Sad thing is he was too arrogant to change his strategy, and the Right had thier noses too far up the Bush Administration's ass to force change.

    I left the GOP in 2004 for that very reason. The Right quit being true to itself and became sycophants.

  8. #258
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    After our naif child-president-administration failed to negotiate a simple SOFA treaty and we had to pull out, thereby putting in danger (if not choosing to lose) all our hard-won gains?

    Yeah, I'm fairly aware of what's going on in Iraq lately.



    Meh, sort of. The drawdown should have been contingent upon realities on the ground in Iraq rather than political preferences in Washington. A similar story is being played out now in Afghanistan, where the President ordered our military to go in and take casualties to clear the areas that with his next breath he announced he intends to abandon - effectively choosing the worst of both worlds.
    I seem to recall we were already in the process of leaving Iraq due to a agreement negotiated by the previous administration. The Iraqis just asked us to leave sooner.
    "If you can't stand the way this place is, Take yourself to higher places!"
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  9. #259
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    After our naif child-president-administration failed to negotiate a simple SOFA treaty and we had to pull out, thereby putting in danger (if not choosing to lose) all our hard-won gains?

    Yeah, I'm fairly aware of what's going on in Iraq lately. Which changes the history of the Surge not a whit.



    Meh, sort of. The drawdown should have been contingent upon realities on the ground in Iraq rather than political preferences in Washington. A similar story is being played out now in Afghanistan, where the President ordered our military to go in and take casualties to clear the areas that with his next breath he announced he intends to abandon - effectively choosing the worst of both worlds.
    Bull. We should have left Iraq in 2004, once Saddam was found. Staying one day longer was a huge mistake. Ditto Afghanistan. Staying in that ****hole one day longer than OBL's miserable life is a huge mistake.

  10. #260
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Bull. We should have left Iraq in 2004, once Saddam was found. Staying one day longer was a huge mistake. Ditto Afghanistan. Staying in that ****hole one day longer than OBL's miserable life is a huge mistake.
    again, whether you think it was a strategic mistake or not is irrelevant to the success of the Surge.

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