View Poll Results: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

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  • Release them.

    5 9.09%
  • Move them to US facilities and try them.

    17 30.91%
  • Continue to detain then indefinitely.

    8 14.55%
  • Something else.

    25 45.45%
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Thread: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

  1. #221
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    Boo Radley's Avatar
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Thank you for describing Civil Disobedience. But I cannot help but notice that you did not answer the question.

    Was (for example) the Civil Disobedience practiced by Martin Luther King Jr justified?



    I'm not really willing to do a state-by-state search of the relevant law, and will take your word on it.



    On the contrary, the use of the absolute declares the absolute.
    Oi answered it by telling you it isn't the same thing. It's not immoral. And there us expectation of not going to jail. MLK went to jail as you recall. So you're trying to compare an apple with a tree frog.

    I'm sure you enjoy quoting your last sentence, but it's meaningless. Common phrases come with a well know societal context.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #222
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    No one "flip-flopped" until the war began to be mismanaged. What was appalling was Rummy using his position to hire and surround himself with yes-men, not supplying our troops with adequate equipment (remember their lack of body armor and humvees which lacked IED protection?) and getting our boys killed as the country slipped into chaos because he minimized the number of our troops and disbanded the Iraqi army.
    I don't remember it that way Calamity. Have a nice day.

  3. #223
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Release them? Try them? Leave them there indefinitely... forever?

    Do we lose any alleged moral high ground by detaining then indefinitely? Should we care?
    Had we explained better at the start, what we were going to do and why it was necessary, we would not have had the problems. Even now it would be a help to explain, explain, explain.
    But we should put massive pressure on the governments that criticized American action to take some of the criminals. The US government should make it quite clear that it is not a problem the US wants to solve alone and"freinds" like Germany will face consequences if it continues to shun shouldering responsibility appropriate to its profits from international security.

  4. #224
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    I don't remember it that way Calamity. Have a nice day.
    I'm sure you don't. Selective memory is not a very attractive trait of the Right.

    Here's a reminder---John McCain back in 2007 saying Iraq was mismanaged by Rummy.


    McCain: Iraq War Mismanaged For Years - CBS News
    Republican presidential candidate John McCain said Monday the war in Iraq has been mismanaged for years and former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld will be remembered as one of the worst in history.

    "We are paying a very heavy price for the mismanagement — that's the kindest word I can give you — of Donald Rumsfeld, of this war," the Arizona senator told an overflow crowd of more than 800 at a retirement community near Hilton Head Island, S.C. "The price is very, very heavy and I regret it enormously."

  5. #225
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    In 2007 in Fallujah we were pulling down enemy propaganda that they would leave plastered to mosques, peoples homes, etc. They would try different tacts, doing experimentation, seeing what worked.

    In one section of the city, they argued that siding with the Americans (or even not helping AQI) was a fools' bargain, because America was going to abandon its "allies" and pull out. To prove their point, they quoted several U.S. Senators, including the lady who wants to be the next President of the United States and the current Majority Leader who had helpfully declared at that point that the Surge had failed (before it had even really fully begun).

    That particular propaganda campaign was devastatingly effective. That section of the city was the last to become secure, and we lost more guys there than the rest of the city combined.


    Just my own small observation. I wouldn't defend Rumsfeld's mistakes in judgement, only point them out to those who are now determined to repeat them.
    IMO, by 2007 the war was lost. We had our chance in 2003 & 4. Once that failed, especially by 2007, abandoning Iraq actually made sense.

  6. #226
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Oi answered it by telling you it isn't the same thing. It's not immoral.
    You did not limit your proposed ban to "immoral". You said Immoral and Illegal. Look, I'll quote you saying it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley
    Post 186
    Immoral and illegal means are never justified no matter the ends.
    If you now wish to strike "illegal" and simply say that immoral means do not justify the ends that's fine. In that case my reply to you would be the same as my point to DA60 - that the morality of means is often determined by the end being pursued, and cannot be considered independently of them.


    Or if you wish to argue that you were speaking only to means that were both immoral and illegal then that would be fine, too. That would leave you defending means that were strictly immoral (but not illegal) as justified by an end, but it's your call.

    I'm sure you enjoy quoting your last sentence, but it's meaningless. Common phrases come with a well know societal context.
    The ends do not justify the means is a common phrase. The argument that no end justifies any means is not.

  7. #227
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    IMO, by 2007 the war was lost. We had our chance in 2003 & 4. Once that failed, especially by 2007, abandoning Iraq actually made sense.
    well you were free to your opinion, and I for one and glad that you turned out to be incorrect. 2007/2008 were wildly successful years for OIF.

    I think you are conflating "domestic political support" for "winning a war".

  8. #228
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    I'm sure you don't. Selective memory is not a very attractive trait of the Right.

    Here's a reminder---John McCain back in 2007 saying Iraq was mismanaged by Rummy.


    McCain: Iraq War Mismanaged For Years - CBS News
    That was when McCain was running for president and needed someone to throw under the bus in regard to what had become an unpopular war.
    McCain has a reputation of throwing a lot of people in his own party under the bus. Sometimes it's hard to tell if he is a Progressive or a Republican. Or maybe both!

  9. #229
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    I'm sure you don't. Selective memory is not a very attractive trait of the Right.

    Here's a reminder---John McCain back in 2007 saying Iraq was mismanaged by Rummy.

    McCain: Iraq War Mismanaged For Years - CBS News
    Rumsfelds' "Light Footprint" strategy (what today we call "Drones and Special Forces", and is suddenly popular with many on both sides who want to limit our presence overseas) was indeed incredibly ill-suited to counterinsurgency in the context of a collapsed nation-state. His refusal to accept discordant analysis on items such as necessary force allocations from senior military leadership, including JCS Shinseki is rightfully a classic case of low-complexity, confirmation-seeking decision-making. However it wasn't his decision to send home the Iraqi Army - that was a casualty of the lack of unity of command and division between Bremer and Franks. Nor was it the Bush Administrations' fault that we lacked armored vehicles and the kinds of body armor we ended up wearing - those were produced by the Clinton Administrations' reductions in R&D and Procurement in the 90s. Rumsfeld was derided for the "you go to war with the army you have" comment, but he was also correct; just as he was with the "Known Unknowns" schtick.

    Just saying, the man deserves credit for what he got right, and blame for what he got wrong, rather than to have anything that happened that was bad or good thrown randomly on him.

  10. #230
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    Re: What should we do with the Guantanamo prisoners?

    It's all so "hush hush" Carney wouldn't confirm if Obama was still breathing but this is a big part of the answer:

    The White House on Thursday wouldn't confirm a report that the administration was in talks with Yemen to set up a detention facility outside its capital city of Sanaa to house suspected terrorists at Guantánamo Bay and in Afghanistan

    Carney's sidestepping came on the heels of a Los Angeles Times report that said U.S. and Yemeni officials were negotiating how the facility would be funded and whether it would function as a prison or type of halfway house to allow detainees to reenter society.
    White House mum on Yemeni detention facility | TheHill

    we should be glad to pay for it (detention center/prison), and ship them off to Yemen, where they can get their fair share of abuse.
    Around half of the prisoners at Guantánamo Bay are from Yemen, and 55 have already been designated to return
    Oṃ maṇi padme hūṃ

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