View Poll Results: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

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  • Yes

    32 76.19%
  • No

    6 14.29%
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    7 16.67%
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Thread: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

  1. #21
    Educator Starbuck's Avatar
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    Re: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJR View Post
    I agree, we should have a closed policy much like the Swiss. . . . if you don't fly the stars and stripes, go back to wherever the hell you came from.
    How very libertarian of you.

  2. #22
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    Re: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    How very libertarian of you.
    It absolutely isn't. It is one policy I'm quite adamantly against. Countries, as of late, that have open border policies, are crumbling economically and culturally. Unlike the left or the right, the Libertarians don't vote lockstep and do offer alternatives as individuals.

    Is it ideal? Sure. Open borders, everyone smiling. Is it realistic? On the verge of a global financial catastrophe with the imminent collapse of the EU, I hardly think an influx of population is a good strategy to preserve the country. My views on this are strictly from a fiscal standpoint. It is the only Libertarian Party policy I do not agree with. Population increase from people that are from countries that are quite literally the opposite of us is not a good thing. They will vote (and have historically) for people (progressives) that mirror the system they were accustomed to. This is not America, as progressives don't share a single view with the founding fathers, nor do they look at the Federalist Papers as anything more than a bunch of organized sheets of paper with zero bearing on the country.

    Bottom line, a large influx of people will lead to a collapse economically. Go to the southwest. I've been. Border towns in particular. Count foreign flags being flown vs American flags. Point in proof. They have no respect for this country. Why should they stay?

    There are nationalist Libertarians. I stand for the country as it was when it was founded. I'd love to see a return, as the country was essentially founded by Libertarians (or before the left stole it, 'classical liberals').
    Last edited by MichaelJR; 12-20-13 at 01:33 AM.

  3. #23
    Educator Starbuck's Avatar
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    Re: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJR View Post
    Problem here, the people coming here are clueless concerning America.
    What is America, especially where immigrants (legal or otherwise) are clueless about?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJR View Post
    Spend-it-all-Deval (MA governor) won in a landslide primarily due to uneducated and largely state dependent areas.
    Calling Massachusetts anything other than highly educated is rather absurd. Even in the worst school districts, education is valued in MA, and on the whole I'd argue that it's a relatively successful state. Especially considering the extreme lack of natural resources available to its population.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJR View Post
    This isn't a race thing. Don't start with that. This is purely numbers and facts.
    Numbers and facts:

    CBP budget = $11+ billion per year.

  4. #24
    Educator Starbuck's Avatar
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    Re: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJR View Post
    It absolutely isn't. It is one policy I'm quite adamantly against. Countries, as of late, that have open border policies, are crumbling economically and culturally. Unlike the left or the right, the Libertarians don't vote lockstep and do offer alternatives as individuals.
    If there's one thing I value, it's honesty.

    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJR View Post
    Bottom line, a large influx of people will lead to a collapse economically. Go to the southwest. I've been. Border towns in particular. Count foreign flags being flown vs American flags. Point in proof. They have no respect for this country. Why should they stay?
    Fiscally speaking, I'd argue just the opposite. The way I see it, our military/ defense industrial complex is likely the most damaging fiscal activity of our government. Historically speaking, our largest influxes of immigrants have come at times of global catastrophe.

    This is about the only area, where I get all "flag wavy" and see the United States as that beacon of hope. The text on the Statue of Liberty has always struck a chord with me.

  5. #25
    Educator Starbuck's Avatar
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    Re: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

    I do understand that no-one is ever, nor should they be, hard-line for any one political party.

    However, I do feel that a non-liberterian approach to immigration enforcement, really bleeds over into almost every other facet of the political ideology that is libertarianism.

  6. #26
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    Re: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    What is America, especially where immigrants (legal or otherwise) are clueless about?
    For starters, our actual economic system (before the progressives decided we need to become a western european utopia)


    Calling Massachusetts anything other than highly educated is rather absurd. Even in the worst school districts, education is valued in MA, and on the whole I'd argue that it's a relatively successful state. Especially considering the extreme lack of natural resources available to its population.

    I'm from MA. I assure you, it's overstated, and the numbers are fixed and trumped by an extremely corrupt public school system. Teachers editing standardized tests numbers in the hundreds per year to boost numbers. I'm sure the media doesn't bring that up. Sharks don't eat sharks. As for economically, businesses are leaving in droves north of the Border to NH and down to Texas due to our asinine tax policies. The only reason Bio/Med companies stick around is because they get to pluck the best and brightest out of our Ivy leagues and MIT.

    Numbers and facts:

    CBP budget = $11+ billion per year.

    Couldn't agree with you more. It's ridiculous. Privatize it. Cost effectivity.
    And there you have it.

  7. #27
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    Re: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    I do understand that no-one is ever, nor should they be, hard-line for any one political party.

    However, I do feel that a non-liberterian approach to immigration enforcement, really bleeds over into almost every other facet of the political ideology that is libertarianism.
    My concern is financial. I don't hold hate that the right has. This isn't a 'murica thing, this is a we are basically broke thing. We can't afford anyone else at the table right now. Pure numbers.

  8. #28
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    Re: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    If there's one thing I value, it's honesty.

    Fair enough.



    Fiscally speaking, I'd argue just the opposite. The way I see it, our military/ defense industrial complex is likely the most damaging fiscal activity of our government. Historically speaking, our largest influxes of immigrants have come at times of global catastrophe.

    This is about the only area, where I get all "flag wavy" and see the United States as that beacon of hope. The text on the Statue of Liberty has always struck a chord with me.
    Our military budget is insane. 100%. Foreign military aid, the foreign military bases we have...all unnecessary. Our blue water navy and ridiculous air superiority is enough to keep anyone at bay. It's all posturing and $$ keeping that machine running. We don't need 3/4 of it to remain the most terrifying military force this world has ever seen.

    That text still means something, but at the time our country was still being ran in the way that it was originally designed. We are a shadow of our former selves now, and we don't have the means to support that ideology. I wish we could. We simply don't have the resources.

    I think we agree on most levels ideologically, and mentally I remain Libertarian through and through, but the money required is immense. It will be as big of a disaster as our military budget is.

  9. #29
    Educator Starbuck's Avatar
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    Re: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJR View Post
    And there you have it.
    1. Our economic system is relatively simple. . . capitalism. What's not to understand, and from everywhere I've been that seems to be the system at work there also. Hell, there's hardly anywhere in the world that doesn't operate on the same (interchangeable) economic system.

    2. Funny thing is, I also grew up in MA. Having lived-in and worked in other parts of the country since leaving ten years ago, I'd say that MA schools measure up pretty well to the rest of the nation. I'm pretty sure the public education I received in MA has helped me quite a bit, it's not perfect, but seems to do pretty well. And as for the state on whole, education is a very critical industry, along with research and finance. MA has taken a strong hold on these profitable industries, and it matters not why they stay, so long as they do. I'm pretty sure its the market keeping all of those revenue generating businesses in the state.

    3. Privatizing border patrol won't help the cost, look at health care. . . some times futile efforts should simply be stopped.

  10. #30
    Educator Starbuck's Avatar
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    Re: Do you think the US should continue to allow immigration?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJR View Post
    Our military budget is insane. 100%. Foreign military aid, the foreign military bases we have...all unnecessary. Our blue water navy and ridiculous air superiority is enough to keep anyone at bay. It's all posturing and $$ keeping that machine running. We don't need 3/4 of it to remain the most terrifying military force this world has ever seen.
    These are sad facts, beyond that I've never seen the need for us to even remain the most terrifying military force this world has ever seen anyway? I've read plenty of books and studied plenty of papers, and don't ever recall that being one of the goals set forth by the founders.

    I remember being on patrol in SE Asia, listening to some Captain give a speech about why Singapore should be happy to live under American protection from China. I kept thinking how absurd this whole venture was, why were a bunch of US ships running around selling our protection to a nation that doesn't really need it, from a nation that isn't really attacking anyone? The answer: $$$$

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJR View Post
    That text still means something, but at the time our country was still being ran in the way that it was originally designed. We are a shadow of our former selves now, and we don't have the means to support that ideology. I wish we could. We simply don't have the resources.
    I agree that it sounds financially daunting, to allow open borders. However, I promise that it is the opposite. People are like water, or any other natural phenomenon, and in that respect it is always going to be impossible to enforce the border 100%. It's like the war on drugs, totally futile.

    Our money would be better spent actually enforcing civility & laws on the local level. Return to community policing, and get away from this militarized (and expensive) occupation that we have now.

    I think we agree on most levels ideologically, and mentally I remain Libertarian through and through, but the money required is immense. It will be as big of a disaster as our military budget is.[/QUOTE]

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