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Legal drinking age?

What should the legal drinking age be?

  • Bring back Prohibition.

    Votes: 4 4.3%

  • Older than 21. Raise it even higher!

    Votes: 2 2.2%

  • Leave it at 21 (in the USA).

    Votes: 17 18.5%

  • 20

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • 19

    Votes: 1 1.1%

  • 18

    Votes: 44 47.8%

  • 17

    Votes: 2 2.2%

  • 16

    Votes: 4 4.3%

  • Below 16.

    Votes: 3 3.3%

  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 15 16.3%
  • Total voters
    92
ChrisL said:
And they'll be sorry. The FACT is that 18-year-olds are just not adults. They are naturally risk takers. You can deny this all day, but it doesn't change the facts.
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Legally, they are adults. And moving the age of maturity up only leads to moving the age of actual maturity up, which just puts off the problems for a later time.
 
roguenuke said:
If you are allowing your children to drink to the point of being "stupidly drunk" then that is not teaching them responsible drinking. But completely sheltering them from it or only showing the bad will confuse them once they are out on their own. They will get conflicting information and likely wish to see which is more accurate, leading to stupid decisions being made and no experience for dealing with things.
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Kids are still going to do this. Most parents teach their children to not drink and drive, but the kids do it anyway. That is what kids do when they are teens too, they defy their parents. It's a natural part of growing up, which also shows that they are NOT grown ups yet.
 
roguenuke said:
Legally, they are adults. And moving the age of maturity up only leads to moving the age of actual maturity up, which just puts off the problems for a later time.
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Legally schmeagally. Like I said, the latest scientific data shows they are not adults.
 
Go to the bar district of any college town--or better yet, read any of those towns' police reports--and then let's discuss teenaged drinking. ;)
 
ChrisL said:
The problem is, alcohol is an addictive poison.
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No it's not. It can become addicting, as can gambling, porn, or debating online. But I drink on a regular basis and I seem to be neither addicted nor particularly poisoned.

A firearm is not. A vehicle is not. Finances are not. Do you understand that?
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Finances can absolutely become addictive - credit card / debt / spending addiction is a huge problem in our society, not least because we do not like to talk about it much and thus do not have well-developed public means to deal with it and public shame to push people into it.
 
ChrisL said:
Okay, again, this is NOT Candy Land. Teens are going to drink with their friends at unsupervised parties. :roll: My God!!!
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Not all teens. And that is where untying parents' hands comes in too. Allowing parents to feel that they can decide whether or not their children can drink in their homes or in the home of an adult they trust rather than the law deciding is much more likely to allow parents to better teach their children to drink responsibly.
 
cpwill said:
So, in other words, unless they learn how to drink at home, they will be learning how to drink at unsupervised teen parties? And you think that the second is preferable to the first?
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Lol! I'm saying that regardless of what you teach them at home, they are going to go out and drink with their friends. Gosh, so naive! If you had been my parent when I was a teen, I would have OWNED you! :lol:
 
cpwill said:
Wait. Are you suggesting that 18-20 year olds are less mature and have less well-developed self-control mechanisms than 21-30 year olds?
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So, Chris - justs to be clear: You are saying this?
 
ChrisL said:
Legally schmeagally. Like I said, the latest scientific data shows they are not adults.
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Which would make "adult" an arbitrary word with no real set point. Some people would never be adults if it was based on research data, and others would be adults at much younger ages, even than 18.
 
roguenuke said:
Not all teens. And that is where untying parents' hands comes in too. Allowing parents to feel that they can decide whether or not their children can drink in their homes or in the home of an adult they trust rather than the law deciding is much more likely to allow parents to better teach their children to drink responsibly.
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God, wake up and look around will you?
 
roguenuke said:
Which would make "adult" an arbitrary word with no real set point. Some people would never be adults if it was based on research data, and others would be adults at much younger ages, even than 18.
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Adult is an arbitrary term of course, silly. I would rather err on the side of caution and raise the age rather than lower it when MOST are not anywhere near being adults or even adult-like in their behaviors and emotional levels. LOL! Were you guys EVER teenagers?
 
ChrisL said:
Kids are still going to do this. Most parents teach their children to not drink and drive, but the kids do it anyway. That is what kids do when they are teens too, they defy their parents. It's a natural part of growing up, which also shows that they are NOT grown ups yet.
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Adults drink and drive, some even after facing serious consequences for it. But not all. Not all kids or teens are the same. You seem to be set in this stereotype of teenage behavior. Not all teens act like they do on TV or in movies. Not all attend mass blowout parties where everyone is getting drunk and rowdy and making horrible decisions.

But it is more likely that kids will defy parents who put the most stringent restrictions on them, because they have more reason to want to experience what they feel they are missing out on.
 
ChrisL said:
Lol! I'm saying that regardless of what you teach them at home, they are going to go out and drink with their friends
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Sure they are. And I hope they do - I have had many good times hanging out with my friends when we drank together, and intend to have many more before my life is over. But I want them to be able to do so without self-destruction; but that requires some education and experience. I want them to get that in a safer environment so that A) alcohol isn't the oh-my-gosh-hell-yeah-live-dangerously venue that it is for teens who are coming to it from the stance that it is verbodden and B) they actually start off by learning about good alcohol, and how to enjoy it, rather than bad alcohol and how to consume it en masse.

Gosh, so naive!
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:) I have partied in the red-light district of Bangkok. "naive" is not something I get to claim anymore.

If you had been my parent when I was a teen, I would have OWNED you!
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Did your parents teach you how to drink responsibly long before you started off on your own?
 
roguenuke said:
Adults drink and drive, some even after facing serious consequences for it. But not all. Not all kids or teens are the same. You seem to be set in this stereotype of teenage behavior. Not all teens act like they do on TV or in movies. Not all attend mass blowout parties where everyone is getting drunk and rowdy and making horrible decisions.

But it is more likely that kids will defy parents who put the most stringent restrictions on them, because they have more reason to want to experience what they feel they are missing out on.
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You see, teens are at that age where they are learning to become independent. They are pushing ALL of your buttons, and testing all the limits. It's natural. I don't blame them for it. It's cutting the apron strings so to speak. Many, many, many teens behave just like that. If you don't think so, you are just in denial. :lol:
 
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ChrisL said:
Adult is an arbitrary term of course, silly. I would rather err on the side of caution and raise the age rather than lower it when MOST are not anywhere near being adults or even adult-like in their behaviors and emotional levels. LOL! Were you guys EVER teenagers?
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I was a mature teenager. I was helping raise my siblings as a teenager and then I joined the Navy.

If you do not give them a chance to act like adults, be treated like adults, then they will never become adults. Maturity in our behavior and emotional levels doesn't magically develop. It comes with experience. Those experiences cannot be garnered without allowing teenagers to have those experiences.
 
cpwill said:
Sure they are. And I hope they do - I have had many good times hanging out with my friends when we drank together, and intend to have many more before my life is over. But I want them to be able to do so without self-destruction; but that requires some education and experience. I want them to get that in a safer environment so that A) alcohol isn't the oh-my-gosh-hell-yeah-live-dangerously venue that it is for teens who are coming to it from the stance that it is verbodden and B) they actually start off by learning about good alcohol, and how to enjoy it, rather than bad alcohol and how to consume it en masse.



:) I have partied in the red-light district of Bangkok. "naive" is not something I get to claim anymore.



Did your parents teach you how to drink responsibly long before you started off on your own?
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The thread is not about me, so I'm not going to answer your personal questions. However, it's quite obvious that you are oblivious to how teens behave and what drives them. I understand them VERY well.
 
ChrisL said:
You see, teens are at that age where they are learning to become independent. They are pushing ALL of your buttons, and testing all the limits. It's natural. I don't blame them for it. It's cutting the apron strings so to speak. Many, many, many teens behave just like that. If you don't think so, you are just in denial. :lol:
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I helped raise my siblings. I know how teens act. But you still have to allow for experiences to happen for them to learn from those and mature from those things. You have to start treating them like adults if you expect them to be able to act like adults at whatever the age of majority is, or they will never actually reach that desired "adult" maturity level.
 
roguenuke said:
I was a mature teenager. I was helping raise my siblings as a teenager and then I joined the Navy.

If you do not give them a chance to act like adults, be treated like adults, then they will never become adults. Maturity in our behavior and emotional levels doesn't magically develop. It comes with experience. Those experiences cannot be garnered without allowing teenagers to have those experiences.
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No, some are too immature to be adults. I know this from experience. I can remember when clarity came to me one day. I was well into my late 20s. Most typical teens are like I was. They take risks, they defy their parents, they don't think before they act a lot of times, etc., etc.

Some people also have to learn their lessons the hard way. That is so much more than a cliche. It is absolute truth. Some kids you can teach and teach until you are blue in the face, but they have to learn the hard way, and I'd rather that maybe alcohol not be involved. That can turn a plain stupid decision into a deadly one.
 
roguenuke said:
I helped raise my siblings. I know how teens act. But you still have to allow for experiences to happen for them to learn from those and mature from those things. You have to start treating them like adults if you expect them to be able to act like adults at whatever the age of majority is, or they will never actually reach that desired "adult" maturity level.
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I'm sorry, but if you believe this, you are foolish. For many teens, the world still revolves around them. They are just incapable of being an adult yet.
 
ChrisL said:
The thread is not about me, so I'm not going to answer your personal questions. However, it's quite obvious that you are oblivious to how teens behave and what drives them. I understand them VERY well.
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:shrug: good for you. Myself, I spent 8 years of my life directly supervising (and living with) all-told probably more than a hundred 18-20 year olds who drank regularly, in a variety of circumstances and countries from the extreme party scene (and I sincerely doubt that you have partied like infantry Marines getting stupid. People have actually died and buildings have been set on fire) to the hanging-around-and-having-a-beer bar b que. But I'm sure that you remembering 20 years ago when you were a teenager gives you a lot of insight that other people who were also teenagers at one point don't have.

I rarely say this about a social issue; but roguenuke is right. If you treat alcohol like some kind of forbidden fruit that they must never touch... teens will grab it as hard as they can as soon as they think your back is turned. If it's not such a big deal :shrug: then it's not such a big deal.
 
ChrisL said:
No, some are too immature to be adults. I know this from experience. I can remember when clarity came to me one day. I was well into my late 20s. Most typical teens are like I was. They take risks, they defy their parents, they don't think before they act a lot of times, etc., etc.
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Yes, teens take risks in defying their parents - now consider what that means when you change the math so that drinking alcohol didn't count as defying a parent? Suddenly getting smashed as stupidly as you can isn't as cool as it once was.
 
cpwill said:
Yes, teens take risks in defying their parents - now consider what that means when you change the math so that drinking alcohol didn't count as defying a parent? Suddenly getting smashed as stupidly as you can isn't as cool as it once was.
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The fact that alcohol is an addictive substance and gets you "high" kind of negates your statement.
 
ChrisL said:
I'm sorry, but if you believe this, you are foolish. For many teens, the world still revolves around them. They are just incapable of being an adult yet.
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I think you simply want to believe that most teens are immature and selfish. While there is a certain amount of both these things in most teens, that doesn't mean that is what makes teens who they are. Plenty of teenagers out there think of others, show plenty of maturity, and can be responsibly. Most of those that I hung out with in high school would not go to parties or drink and drive nor could they really even be called selfish. There are lots of teens out there who are more than capable of making responsible decisions. And I worked with plenty once I joined the Navy that were quite mature. Heck, the majority of those in my school were under 21 (considering the age cutoff for starting my job was 25) and we learned to operate nuclear reactors and started doing it prior to turning 21 (I was personally operating equipment for one and inside one more than almost 2 years prior to turning 21, and I wasn't the only one). So don't tell me 18-20 year olds can't be mature.
 
ChrisL said:
No, some are too immature to be adults. I know this from experience. I can remember when clarity came to me one day. I was well into my late 20s. Most typical teens are like I was. They take risks, they defy their parents, they don't think before they act a lot of times, etc., etc.

Some people also have to learn their lessons the hard way. That is so much more than a cliche. It is absolute truth. Some kids you can teach and teach until you are blue in the face, but they have to learn the hard way, and I'd rather that maybe alcohol not be involved. That can turn a plain stupid decision into a deadly one.
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Some are, but they will never gain that maturity without opportunities to gain experience, to learn, especially from their mistakes.
 
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