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Edward Snowden... today.

Edward Snowden... today.

  • Hero

    Votes: 36 45.6%

  • Traitor

    Votes: 21 26.6%

  • Somewhere in-between (please elaborate)

    Votes: 22 27.8%
  • Total voters
    79
  • Poll closed .
ttwtt78640 said:
What does that make everyone else that was aware of this program?
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Satanists, if Tothian's previous posts are any indication.

In reality, it makes them people that realize that freedom and safety have an inverse relationship and that storing cellular metadata isn't a big issue when compared to the benefits.
 
Tothian said:
He IS a hero. He kept America safe by warning them about the dangers of tyranny and corruption. The government is trying to take away freedom and privacy and anyone who opposes gets labeled crazy or bad.
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Bull****. He didn't say crap about tyranny other than to throw around self-aggrandizing accusations, and he hasn't substantiated or even maintained a single charge of corruption (which is the turning of political power to personal or party benefit). He's a self-interested little narcissist with a grandiose self-image. There are plenty of people who oppose the level of collection that the current IC engages in and aren't getting labled crazy or bad -BECAUSE THEY DON'T ALSO DISCLOSE A METRIC CRAP TON OF HIGHLY CLASSIFIED INFORMATION ON ONGOING COLLECTION THAT IN NO WAY IMPINGES ON AMERICAN CITIZENS, which is what Snowden did.

As OneWorldOrder points out - only by ignoring what Snowden has actually done can you maintain some kind of "hero" facade. Heroes sacrifice themselves for the good of others. Cowards sell out others in attempts to keep safe themselves. The fact that Snowden took four laptops full of secret information to the Chinese and Russians instead of staying in CONUS and facing trial over the issue says everything we need to know about which side of that line he falls on.


ttwtt78640 said:
What does that make everyone else that was aware of this program?
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Well, quite possibly it makes them "people who are aware of the actual workings of the program" (which, it seems, Snowden had only a loose outline awareness of), but at the very least it makes them "people who value the ability to get on the front page of the news less than forestalling attacks against American citizens".
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
What does that make everyone else that was aware of this program?
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Depends what they did with that knowledge.

OldWorldOrder said:
Satanists, if Tothian's previous posts are any indication.

In reality, it makes them people that realize that freedom and safety have an inverse relationship and that storing cellular metadata isn't a big issue when compared to the benefits.
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Hahaha. You so funny.

cpwill said:
Bull****. He didn't say crap about tyranny other than to throw around self-aggrandizing accusations, and he hasn't substantiated or even maintained a single charge of corruption (which is the turning of political power to personal or party benefit). He's a self-interested little narcissist with a grandiose self-image. There are plenty of people who oppose the level of collection that the current IC engages in and aren't getting labled crazy or bad -BECAUSE THEY DON'T ALSO DISCLOSE A METRIC CRAP TON OF HIGHLY CLASSIFIED INFORMATION ON ONGOING COLLECTION THAT IN NO WAY IMPINGES ON AMERICAN CITIZENS, which is what Snowden did.

As OneWorldOrder points out - only by ignoring what Snowden has actually done can you maintain some kind of "hero" facade. Heroes sacrifice themselves for the good of others. Cowards sell out others in attempts to keep safe themselves. The fact that Snowden took four laptops full of secret information to the Chinese and Russians instead of staying in CONUS and facing trial over the issue says everything we need to know about which side of that line he falls on.




Well, quite possibly it makes them "people who are aware of the actual workings of the program" (which, it seems, Snowden had only a loose outline awareness of), but at the very least it makes them "people who value the ability to get on the front page of the news less than forestalling attacks against American citizens".
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There's no way I can help you see the truth and the error of your ways, is there...
 
Tothian said:
There's no way I can help you see the truth and the error of your ways, is there...
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:shrug: given that the people that disagree with you have factual support for their positions whereas you appear to have uninformed just-so statements? Yeah, you're probably not going to convince me. Or anyone else, really, for that matter.
 
cpwill said:
Sadly, we live in a digital age where data is rapidly replicable and fungible. Everything Snowden took is already lost, and will be released to the public whenever Putin deems it most advantageous.
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That's certainly possible, but it's also possible that Snowden hasn't yet released access to this digital information - something possibly to be gained and nothing really to be lost by the gesture.
 
CanadaJohn said:
That's certainly possible, but it's also possible that Snowden hasn't yet released access to this digital information - something possibly to be gained and nothing really to be lost by the gesture.
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It's certainly possible,, but I would find it incredibly surprising if Russia didn't all but force him to give up the goods going through customs. There's a lot that people can do forensically on days storage devices, especially when they know that they should be looking for something. China could've done it too, but they didn't have as much time or warning for him (assuming he's telling the truth about just wanting to be a whistleblower, of course, which is something I highly doubt anyway).
 
OldWorldOrder said:
It's certainly possible,, but I would find it incredibly surprising if Russia didn't all but force him to give up the goods going through customs. There's a lot that people can do forensically on days storage devices, especially when they know that they should be looking for something. China could've done it too, but they didn't have as much time or warning for him (assuming he's telling the truth about just wanting to be a whistleblower, of course, which is something I highly doubt anyway).
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I think it's likely that Glenn Greenwald is the only one with electronic access, perhaps along with Wikileaks in some form, and Snowden is in charge of release timing/authorization similar to Greenwald's relationship with Julian Assange. I don't believe at all that Snowden had the information with him when he went to Hong Kong and then Russia - it was likely up somewhere in the "cloud", fully secured, and the Russians may be bargaining for it but can't be seen to be torturing him to get it. If they had access to it, it wouldn't still be filtering out from Greenwald.
 
CanadaJohn said:
That's certainly possible, but it's also possible that Snowden hasn't yet released access to this digital information - something possibly to be gained and nothing really to be lost by the gesture.
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.... do you really think that Snowden is still in control of that data?
 
CanadaJohn said:
Through surrogates, yes.
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:lamo Dude, Snowden is in Putins' Russia, and he spent time in China. He doesn't have the ability to call back the data anymore; it's gone, man. Surrogates? His 'surrogates' are going to be provided by the Russian state. Who do you think they work for?
 
cpwill said:
:lamo Dude, Snowden is in Putins' Russia, and he spent time in China. He doesn't have the ability to call back the data anymore; it's gone, man. Surrogates? His 'surrogates' are going to be provided by the Russian state. Who do you think they work for?
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I think Greenwald and Wikileaks are surrogates for Snowden. I don't think for a minute that Snowden waltzed into Russia with electronic storage devices filled with what he culled from the NSA. That stuff was in safe hands long before Snowden left Hong Kong.
 
CanadaJohn said:
I think Greenwald and Wikileaks are surrogates for Snowden. I don't think for a minute that Snowden waltzed into Russia with electronic storage devices filled with what he culled from the NSA. That stuff was in safe hands long before Snowden left Hong Kong.
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4 Laptops, to be specific. And "that stuff" was in the hands of the Chinese before it got to the Russians. Would Snowden release more stuff to Greenwald or Wikileaks? :shrug: It depends on how free his decision-making is at this point; I would bet the answer to that is "not very".

Snowden is an fool if he thought he would be allowed to be a free actor while holding materials that could do real geopolitical damage to the US in Putins' Russia. That's like saying you're going to walk into a criminal gang's hangout with hundreds of thousands in small bills on your person and plan on keeping it by appealing to their better natures. :roll:
 
cpwill said:
4 Laptops, to be specific. And "that stuff" was in the hands of the Chinese before it got to the Russians. Would Snowden release more stuff to Greenwald or Wikileaks? :shrug: It depends on how free his decision-making is at this point; I would bet the answer to that is "not very".

Snowden is an fool if he thought he would be allowed to be a free actor while holding materials that could do real geopolitical damage to the US in Putins' Russia. That's like saying you're going to walk into a criminal gang's hangout with hundreds of thousands in small bills on your person and plan on keeping it by appealing to their better natures. :roll:
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I don't disagree with that - I never claimed Snowden was the sharpest knife in the drawer.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Yea, traitor. He had other avenues to do what he did. He chose to betray his job and nation. Shoot on sight.
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He betrayed a government which betrayed the People. Upholding one's commitment to the People and Republic at large is well better than serving despotic organizations.
 
Tothian said:
Yes. But that's because Jesus told us to. It's accepting the body of Christ.

People need to accept the body of Christ. Not the body of satan.
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I drink goat milk and eat goat cheese. Sometimes I eat goat meat. I am a Satanist?
 
CRUE CAB said:
Yea, traitor. He had other avenues to do what he did. He chose to betray his job and nation. Shoot on sight.
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So when the government is violating the rights of people the best course of action is to go to the government to report it. Is that about right? :doh
 
cpwill said:
Bull****. He didn't say crap about tyranny other than to throw around self-aggrandizing accusations, and he hasn't substantiated or even maintained a single charge of corruption (which is the turning of political power to personal or party benefit). He's a self-interested little narcissist with a grandiose self-image. There are plenty of people who oppose the level of collection that the current IC engages in and aren't getting labled crazy or bad -BECAUSE THEY DON'T ALSO DISCLOSE A METRIC CRAP TON OF HIGHLY CLASSIFIED INFORMATION ON ONGOING COLLECTION THAT IN NO WAY IMPINGES ON AMERICAN CITIZENS, which is what Snowden did.

As OneWorldOrder points out - only by ignoring what Snowden has actually done can you maintain some kind of "hero" facade. Heroes sacrifice themselves for the good of others. Cowards sell out others in attempts to keep safe themselves. The fact that Snowden took four laptops full of secret information to the Chinese and Russians instead of staying in CONUS and facing trial over the issue says everything we need to know about which side of that line he falls on.




Well, quite possibly it makes them "people who are aware of the actual workings of the program" (which, it seems, Snowden had only a loose outline awareness of), but at the very least it makes them "people who value the ability to get on the front page of the news less than forestalling attacks against American citizens".
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LOL, if he didn't stay and get locked in a box without trial for years like Manning, he's a coward. That's the lamest bull**** I've ever heard. You're just mad because you don't get to see him suffer. You're a war hawk that values security over liberty every day of the week; it's a coward's position.

He's been extremely discriminatory about releasing documents. If he really wanted to hurt America, he would've done a mass release of the documents and not releasing carefully filtered selections like he has been now. You also have zero proof whatsoever that he's handed anything to the Chinese or Russians.

Snowden sacrificed his privileged life to inform us about the overreaches of our government. By even your own definition, that's a hero. Apparently to you, however, a hero is only a hero if he gets burned at the stake afterwards.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
If he really wanted to hurt America, he would've done a mass release of the documents and not releasing carefully filtered selections
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He cannot hurt America. Everyone already knew that the NSA collected meta-data. The NSA made this clear before Snowden. All he did was break rank to provide evidence of what was already established. Why? Not to hurt America. I'll tell you why: So that suckers all over the world would give this piece of garbage his 15 minutes. That's right, dumbasses the world over line up to suck his ****. THAT's why he did it, and anyone who thinks otherwise is in line.
 
radcen said:
Edward Snowden... today. (15 December 2013)

Now that some time has passed, and we have had a chance to view some of the ramifications of his actions, and how the government has reacted, how do you view Edward Snowden today?

Hero? Traitor?
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 Somewhere in between?

Does your view of him today vary from your initial view after he first released documents?
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I don't see Snowden as a hero or a traitor.

If he's smart he'll stay out of the USA.
 
ecofarm said:
He cannot hurt America. Everyone already knew that the NSA collected meta-data. The NSA made this clear before Snowden. All he did was break rank to provide evidence of what was already established. Why? Not to hurt America. I'll tell you why: So that suckers all over the world would give this piece of garbage his 15 minutes. That's right, dumbasses the world over line up to suck his ****. THAT's why he did it, and anyone who thinks otherwise is in line.
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Incorrect. Most Americans expected the government was collecting meta data, but nobody knew the scope. That's also not the only thing he's revealed.

NSA surveillance row: US phone-tapping revealed by Edward Snowden 'likely unconstitutional', says judge - Americas - World - The Independent
Snowden document reveals key role of companies in NSA data collection | World news | theguardian.com

Are you really claiming that if he did a mass release of all his documents it wouldn't hurt America at all?

Our government has been doing a LOT more than collecting meta-data. Before Snowden nobody had the balls to even talk about it or to discuss what limits our government should have. Now we're having a national discussion about it. That's a big win for democracy and transparency.

The "he did it only for fame" claim doesn't make any sense at all.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
Incorrect. Most Americans expected the government was collecting meta data, but nobody knew the scope. That's also not the only thing he's revealed.

NSA surveillance row: US phone-tapping revealed by Edward Snowden 'likely unconstitutional', says judge - Americas - World - The Independent
Snowden document reveals key role of companies in NSA data collection | World news | theguardian.com

Are you really claiming that if he did a mass release of all his documents it wouldn't hurt America at all?

Our government has been doing a LOT more than collecting meta-data. Before Snowden nobody had the balls to even talk about it or to discuss what limits our government should have. Now we're having a national discussion about it. That's a big win for democracy and transparency.

The "he did it only for fame" claim doesn't make any sense at all.
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Couldn't of said it better myself.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Those duties include protecting the details of classified data/methods. It is not necessary to release classified details of data collected or the specific methods used to get that data. For example one can assert that the US is paying assassins to take out US citzens suspected of criminal/terrorist activities without releasing the names of those doing the paying, those receiving payment or those targetted for elimmination. One can also, as Snowden appears to have done, keep a cache of backup details to be released to cleared members of the executive, lefislative and judicial authorities to prove the veracity of his accusations. Release of classified details to the press directly was not necessary to blow the whistle on the nature of this alleged extra constituional activity.
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It would of never gotten the publicity if he would of gone through normal channel. For people to want to change anything, you have to really shock them into waking up. What Snowden did was the splash of cold water that Americans needed to wake up.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
It would of never gotten the publicity if he would of gone through normal channel. For people to want to change anything, you have to really shock them into waking up. What Snowden did was the splash of cold water that Americans needed to wake up.
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OK, the word is out, the wake up call was issued - what has changed?
 
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