View Poll Results: Edward Snowden... today.

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    40 43.48%
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    25 27.17%
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Thread: Edward Snowden... today.

  1. #261
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You are far more optimistic than I am. Once the gov't gets a power then it never seems prone to let it go. Can you cite any exceptions to that?
    The power to forcibly sterilize members of the citizenry it finds "unfit" comes to mind.

  2. #262
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So you support his actions of whistleblowing, but condemn him for being locked in a box without trial for years, possibly his entire life? What kind of solution is that? Do you envision him standing up in his top secret trial and having such a moving speech that the government decides to change their ways?
    Do you think government is a unitary actor?

  3. #263
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Uh no. In fact - virtually nobody makes that kind of oath.

    People do deliberately violate the law in order to demonstrate its' wrongness. These people are engaging in Civil Disobedience.

    Oh, but there's a catch - in order to be able to claim that mantle, you have to actually stand up to the consequences of your actions, vice stealing a bunch of information and then running to America's geopolitical foes.



    Actually if you bother to read his interviews, the impression that comes across most strongly is that he did not feel that he was being given enough attention as the Mostest Smartest Clued In Guy In The Room. Snowden wasn't a partaker in this program. He did not collect, process, analyze, collate, or disseminate the information involved. He doesn't even appear to have been particularly well-informed about it. But it WAS the biggest thing he could use to get splashed onto the front page, and get back at all those meanies who didn't realize how special he was.



    If Snowden had actually bothered not to flee the consequences, he would have been demonstrating courage. It still would have been stupefyingly bad judgement tied to illegal behavior, but it would have at least involved him demonstrating the courage of what he claims are his convictions. He chose.... not to.



    you can try for that if you like - but that is a standard so loose nearly any person with even the dimmest of public recognition falls under it. If "everyone" is a "hero", then no one is. But that is not what people mean when they try to describe Snowden as a hero - they are attempting to suggest that he has sacrificed himself in some noble cause. Unfortunately for the claim, his cause is as non-existent as his sacrifice.

    Greatly Admired? No he's not. There is a make-believe Snowden character out there that libertarian groups have foolishly tried to construct, and they seek to admire that construct, but it's not Snowden, because it has sharp differences from him. The actual Snowden? Nah. Benedict Arnold found that out long ago - nobody respects a turncoat.
    Wow...all I can say is there is a TON of assuming in your reply.

    Assuming what Snowdon's morales are. Assuming why he did it. Assuming that he is not greatly admired by many (and since you do not know most people - you cannot know what they think about him).


    Now me? I don't claim to know why he did it. Or that his motives must have been honorable - though I will assume they were until there is factual evidence to the contrary. I do know that many people do admire him (as I have heard and/or read them state it), so - whether you or anyone else likes it or not - he does fit the technical definition of a 'hero'. So to claim he is not one is erroneous.


    I do know that I greatly admire what he did, am EXTREMELY glad he did it, and believe he is a hero.

    And, like I stated, I could care less what oath he took.

    If any professional oath I take violates my personal beliefs, I will (hopefully) ignore the former in a minute.


    Apparently your mind is closed on this subject - and mine definitely is until further unbiased, factual evidence comes to light. So further debate/discussion is pointless at this time, IMO.


    Good day.

  4. #264
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Wow...all I can say is there is a TON of assuming in your reply.
    Wait. And yours doesn't?

    Assuming what Snowdon's morales are. Assuming why he did it.
    Yeah? Tell me what this is:

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60
    Being true to one's honor means everything. That is his and everyone's oath. An oath to humanity. An oath to righteousness. An oath to do what you believe is the right thing no matter what the consequences.
    Very few of us actually honor that personal oath...especially those in power. They cave to the will of their superiors. They don't rock the boat. They appease themselves with those old lines 'I was just doing my job' or 'I was just following orders'.
    This guy - apparently - decided his conscious had had enough. That the only way to honor his personal moral code was to break his professional one.
    Because that looks like someone making an assumption as to Snowden's morales, why he did it.

    Now me? I don't claim to know why he did it. Or that his motives must have been honorable
    See Above.

    though I will assume they were until there is factual evidence to the contrary
    Yup. The difference between your assumptions and my assessments being that mine match his behavior.

    I do know that many people do admire him (as I have heard and/or read them state it), so - whether you or anyone else likes it or not - he does fit the technical definition of a 'hero'.
    virtually anyone is a hero, by that most milktoast of definitions, and if anyone is, then no one is. Snowden is not a hero.

    I do know that I greatly admire what he did, am EXTREMELY glad he did it, and believe he is a hero.
    Yeah? You greatly admire him releasing TS information on collection programs that have nothing to do with the American people, but does have the benefit of damaging American relations with its' European allies so that Russia can more easily yank Ukraine back into its kleptocratic, autocratic, and abusive grasp? You approve and are extremely glad he did that? You greatly admire that he would release information on collection methods against terror networks located outside the United States, thereby allowing them to shift their planning efforts to methods that we cannot track and more easily carry out plans to massacre the innocent? You greatly admire that?

    Apparently your mind is closed on this subject
    On Snowden? It would have to be one helluva revelation (such as the data put out is inaccurate and it has been deception from the get-go) to change my mind, given what we know.

    Good day.
    Peace to you.

  5. #265
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Wait. And yours doesn't?



    Yeah? Tell me what this is:



    Because that looks like someone making an assumption as to Snowden's morales, why he did it.



    See Above.



    Yup. The difference between your assumptions and my assessments being that mine match his behavior.



    virtually anyone is a hero, by that most milktoast of definitions, and if anyone is, then no one is. Snowden is not a hero.



    Yeah? You greatly admire him releasing TS information on collection programs that have nothing to do with the American people, but does have the benefit of damaging American relations with its' European allies so that Russia can more easily yank Ukraine back into its kleptocratic, autocratic, and abusive grasp? You approve and are extremely glad he did that? You greatly admire that he would release information on collection methods against terror networks located outside the United States, thereby allowing them to shift their planning efforts to methods that we cannot track and more easily carry out plans to massacre the innocent? You greatly admire that?



    On Snowden? It would have to be one helluva revelation (such as the data put out is inaccurate and it has been deception from the get-go) to change my mind, given what we know.



    Peace to you.
    Nothing personal, but I generally don't do long, multi-quote posts unless I am REALLY bored...it often just leads to mega-debates with nitpicking over every little point - which does not hold much interest for me (plus I am not REALLY bored at this time).

    Though I will say that I did type 'apparently' when discussing Snowden's intent. I never assumed I knew what they were/are...because I do not. No one does except him.

    I have respect for your opinions on several issues...though we differ greatly on this one.

    You have stated yours and I have stated mine.

    I say let's just agree to disagree and move on.


    Good day.

  6. #266
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Nothing personal, but I generally don't do long, multi-quote posts unless I am REALLY bored...it often just leads to mega-debates with nitpicking over every little point - which does not hold much interest for me (plus I am not REALLY bored at this time).

    Though I will say that I did type 'apparently' when discussing Snowden's intent. I never assumed I knew what they were/are...because I do not. No one does except him.

    I have respect for your opinions on several issues...though we differ greatly on this one.

    You have stated yours and I have stated mine.

    I say let's just agree to disagree and move on.


    Good day.
    Fair 'Nuff.

    Though I would point out strictly as someone who has to assess others for a living, that it is also questionable whether Snowden knows his own motives, fully. We are all of us susceptible to the stories we write in our heads where we are misunderstood geniuses, heroes, philanthropists, etc., but which may not be controlling of our behavior. At the end of the day, it's by their deeds that you can know people.

  7. #267
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Without him we probably wouldnt have the certain judges ruling, which makes him a hero and always will be a hero in my book.


  8. #268
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Nothing personal, but I generally don't do long, multi-quote posts unless I am REALLY bored...it often just leads to mega-debates with nitpicking over every little point - which does not hold much interest for me (plus I am not REALLY bored at this time).

    Though I will say that I did type 'apparently' when discussing Snowden's intent. I never assumed I knew what they were/are...because I do not. No one does except him.

    I have respect for your opinions on several issues...though we differ greatly on this one.

    You have stated yours and I have stated mine.

    I say let's just agree to disagree and move on.


    Good day.
    You'll notice when CpWill is on the ropes and wants the other person to just give up, he'll do those ridiculous 30-multi-quote posts where he breaks down every half sentence you say into a new quote. It makes it so exhausting that his opponents usually just leave mumbling "Why am I wasting my life on an internet debate forum arguing with this clown?"
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  9. #269
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Those duties include protecting the details of classified data/methods. It is not necessary to release classified details of data collected or the specific methods used to get that data. For example one can assert that the US is paying assassins to take out US citzens suspected of criminal/terrorist activities without releasing the names of those doing the paying, those receiving payment or those targetted for elimmination. One can also, as Snowden appears to have done, keep a cache of backup details to be released to cleared members of the executive, lefislative and judicial authorities to prove the veracity of his accusations. Release of classified details to the press directly was not necessary to blow the whistle on the nature of this alleged extra constituional activity.
    Considering the scale and scope of the wrong doing of the government Snowden in my opinion did the right thing and went OUTSIDE it. This is not some small thing the government was doing. Sorry but I don't trust ANY of member of the government at this point. I would not put it past this government to have tried paint Snowden's house so to speak, before the info was let out if he went to the RIGHT people first. Snowden actually made a fairly shrewd choice. I don't envy him one bit, as he walks a very lonely road right now.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
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    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

  10. #270
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    Re: Edward Snowden... today.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Considering the scale and scope of the wrong doing of the government Snowden in my opinion did the right thing and went OUTSIDE it. This is not some small thing the government was doing. Sorry but I don't trust ANY of member of the government at this point. I would not put it past this government to have tried paint Snowden's house so to speak, before the info was let out if he went to the RIGHT people first. Snowden actually made a fairly shrewd choice. I don't envy him one bit, as he walks a very lonely road right now.
    Why don't you envy him? He only had to flee the only home he's never known, while half the world is trying to either kill him or imprison him forever. According to a lot of the war hawks around here, he only did it so he could live an extravagant life of fame and fortune, and because of such can not be a hero.

    It's kind of like saying "That guy who was killed, pushing a young girl out from in front of a bus, is no hero. He just did it so he could be famous and bask in his own glory."

    What Snowden did is one of the most selfless acts we've seen in a good while.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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